Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency: Full Episode Transcript - Robin and Steve Boehler’s Introduction

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Question, everything podcast. A podcast all about learning from the successes and the failures of those who dared to well question everything. This podcast is part interview, part therapy, and a little bit. The price is right. We have our own game board stacked with questions that'll make even the most successful CMOs totally sweat. I'm your host, Ashley Walters, CMO, and a partner here at Curiosity. On today's episode, I sit down with Robin and Steve Bowler, founders and partners of Mercer Island Group, west Coast, a preeminent management consulting firm. They help organizations solve critical business and organizational challenges on both the brand and the agency side. If you know, you know, and you know, I'm winking here. For anybody listening to the podcast on today's episode, they share the ins and outs of client-agency matchmaking. Like, should we expect reviews to be up or down in 2024, they give their take. The real reason we have tissue sessions hint, is not to dry our tears. Why do and I is more than just a mission and a plan. The proof needs to be apparent in the pitch. The three most important factors a CMO should consider when hiring an agency are as follows: And maybe a bonus one, too, if you're considering an agency review in 2024 or you're participating in one, this episode spills the tea on what to do and what to avoid. Let's get started.

Today is a very special episode. We have not one but two guests with us today. You may know them as the power couple behind Mercer Island Group, or mig, as we call it. The bowlers are on the podcast today. Welcome.

Thank you. So thrilled to be here. So happy to have you. So I just wanna take a second and brag on both of you a little bit. So, Robin is an award-winning strategic organization, development leadership team building, and training consultant with more than 20 years of experience. She's a Wexner Heritage Foundation scholar. She won Cornell University's Outstanding Volunteerism Award. She's led fieldwork for over a hundred thousand members of nonprofits and has long-tenured clients like Starbucks. No big deal. And Sprint. Steve, on the other hand, has led consulting teams for clients like Nokia, HP, Microsoft, Nintendo, Abbott, and numerous others. He founded Mercer Island Group after serving as a division president at a Fortune 100 company when he was only 32. Earlier in his career. Steve cut his teeth with a decade in brand management at Procter and Gamble, leading brands like Tide, Pringles, and Jeff. Now, these two lead Mercer Island Group, one of the top search consultancies for brands and agencies. And they have a ton of experience and insight that I cannot wait to unpack today. So, welcome officially to question everything. I'm so excited to have you. How have you guys been?

Good. Happy to be towards the end of the year.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency: 2024 — A Year of Opportunity for Brands and Agencies

It's not so much because it's the end of the year, but because it's a new year starting, so I always like this time of year, a little bit of downtime coming up. We work through the end of the year, but a lot of people don't. So it's a good way to get caught up and still feel relaxed and then start really fresh and with new enthusiasm for the year. So I love this time of year.

This is a great way to finish up the year because we adore curiosity. We wanted to be on the Question Anything podcast we didn't ask, but we were delighted to be asked, and we're thrilled to be here.

Well, I'm so glad I asked. This is exciting for us, too, because you guys lead a lot of reviews, and you also consult inside brands within their companies. And you also consult with agencies, which you've done for us many times over the years. So I'm curious, before we get to the game board, any, like, what's happening? What are you expecting to happen in 2024? What are you seeing from brands and agencies? Are we gonna see an increase in reviews or a decrease, any projections or thoughts?

Steve shares the expectation for Mercer Island Group in 2024: 

I think it's gonna be a huge year for reviews. I think creativity started to come back this past year. It had been really quiet through the pandemic media had continued to be strong and continues to be strong. PR has picked up and, and I think what's going on in the business world creates simply an environment where there's a need for change. There's a new need for new thinking, new ideas, new leadership, new capabilities. And the brands everywhere that we talk to are looking for help. And so I just, I think it's gonna be a really big year. I hope it's gonna be a really big year,

I do, too. You agree, Robin? You're shaking your head.

Robin shares the expectation for Mercer Island Group in 2024: 

I absolutely agree, and I'd echo everything Steve said and add that. I think because the, you know, inflation's come down and the economy feels stronger. There are companies that held on some things in 2023 that are now opening the door to go ahead and move forward with initiatives that they held off on. So they'll do them in 2024; they didn't do them in 2023. And I think some of those things are making some new marketing hires, and that often means changing agencies. So, I do think that the agency review business will be strong in 2024.

Okay. Good news for all of us out there. All the agencies out there, hopefully, lots of reviews coming our way. So the way this works, we have 12 super secret questions on our beautiful game board. And the power is in your hands. You guys get to pick which questions we answer. You don't know what's behind any of these. I can attest to that. We're just gonna have a fun conversation. Sound good?

Great.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — How Agencies Stand Out in a Crowded Market

All right. Let's go. What's your favorite number, Robin? You go first.

Let's go with seven. I have seven grandchildren. So seven.

It's also a family-run business. Do you also work with your daughter?

Two of our daughters, actually. And we do son-in-law as well.

Lucky us.

Yes, very lucky. They're all very talented. Okay, so question number seven. You keep in contact with a huge roster of agencies. I absolutely do not know how you do it. What is the one thing that you would say an agency can do to get your attention?

Robin of Mercer Island Group reveals the one thing that they would say an agency can do to get their attention: 

That is a really good question, and it's a really hard question to get my attention. There are a few things. So I can't just do one thing, sorry, I'm gonna break the rule right off the bat and answer the question a little differently than you asked it. The biggest thing, I think, an agency that I've never heard of or that I really don't know anything about can do to get my attention is to do some kind of amazing work that ends up showing up somewhere. Whether I see it as a consumer or I see it in some of the blogs or articles that I read, work that's based on an amazing strategy where I can actually look at the work and know right away, oh my God, they really had a great insight here. And then I'll wanna know who that agency is.

Obviously, I'll know the client. 'cause If it's great to work, the brand is obvious. I remember when the new Burger King work launched, the first time I saw it. That's OKRP, right? The first time I saw that work, I thought, oh my God, they got the audience. They totally got the audience. And there's an insight here that only Burger King can own. And the work was there. And so, right away, I needed to know who the agency was behind the work. So, I saw the work before I saw who was awarded the business. And right there, that's just a note for me, that's an agency to keep on my radar.

Great advice. What about you, Steve?

Steve of Mercer Island Group reveals the one thing that they would say an agency can do to get their attention: 

I agree with Robin. I also, different agencies, different things work for different agencies, but in general, to build awareness, you've gotta get out there. You need to be on lists, you need to win awards, you need to get into the trades. If you're a small agency that your award from adage works, the adage, the Adweek Awards work, the campaign magazine awards work, you know all this because you guys have won all of these things. In fact, now that you're on the A list, right, there's an adage, there's all of that award stuff really matters because it helps build the SEO capabilities of your agency in addition to referrals and phone a friend help and building awareness for an agency as a complicated venture. So you have to have all that ground covered. In addition to that, Robin mentioned the great work because it is recognized.

Thought leadership for the right agency can really help as long as it's helpful that it's not bragged, but it's more about helping people learn how they can be better at their jobs, how they can be better in their industry, and how they can compete better. 'cause That's the only thing that marketers really have time to think about. They're thinking about themselves. So if you're just talking about the agency, they're not gonna listen. You need to talk about something that's really important to them, and they will listen, and there's a chance they'll remember you. This is especially difficult because day in and day out, what we hear from CMOs is they really have a very low unaided awareness of agency names. And it's an upsettingly low amount if you're an agency. So the handful of folks that do this really well, really can stand out. For example, curiosity does a really good job of all of this.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Strategies for Getting Noticed by Consultants

I appreciate that. I mean, I do think there's been more awareness around how important it is for agencies to have a brand and to have a presence out there. And I've really appreciated that my background, you guys know, has been in pr. So applying some of those principles to yourself, just like you would to a client, is really important. We had Jamison on the podcast just recently from Adweek, and he talked a lot about how agencies can contact him. So I think having this ecosystem right, if you've gotta do the work, you gotta put effort into the strategy, into the creative or the media, whatever your discipline is, but then it's gotta get noticed, right? And then how do you make sure consultants like you guys are seeing it as well? Really quick, do you like it when agencies contact you out of the blue? Like, Hey, I wanna introduce myself. This is who we are, this is what we do. Or no, like, let me find you. What do you prefer?

Robin of Mercer Island Group takes on what strategies she preferred for getting noticed by consultants: 

Both, right? I love finding agencies, but I also like knowing agencies. So, there's no way we can find everybody because there are new agencies popping up every day. Literally, new agencies opening the door every day. So agencies should reach out. You know, when I first get an email from an agency that says, Hey, can we get on your radar? How do we do that? We always answer, always. I mean, and if we don't, you should ping us a second time. 'cause It means that you just fell off our radar for the day. You know, that email list was just too long. We never mean to ignore. It won't always be me or Steve who is gonna sit down with an agency and learn about the credentials. The truth of the matter is, while everyone loves to talk to the principals, the people who are really knee-deep in our database and know our agencies are the rest of our team, so often, we have them do calls with agencies.

And that's actually beneficial to the agencies because then the folks who are knee-deep in the database are the ones who understand and know the capabilities. So yeah, we'd love for agencies to reach out and send us news when there's something big that changes. A new person gets hired into the leadership suite, or a big win, a brand new piece of creative or media plan that's doing really great work out there. Clients won, clients lost. We like to know about clients that you've lost because then we know where you're not conflicted. So that helps us to know where the right match might be.

Steve & Robin actually gave me that advice a long time ago, and we put a section on our website for former clients. So now, if a consultant or a client is looking at our website, you can see who we're currently working with. And then see category experience that we have that, that we're not conflicted out. Now, I think a lot of times we're afraid to talk about former clients, but that's a really good perspective.

Because our clients wanna know where, whether or not you have experience in their category. Right? And if you don't have your former clients up there, we only know where you're conflicted and not where you're former experiences.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — The Role of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Agency Matchmaking

I'll offer you one other piece of advice: You guys do a lot of coaching and conferences. And so my advice I would give other agencies is to find out their speaking schedule and attend. I know when I was pretty early in my role, that was one of the first things that I did. I attended one of your conferences three years in a row just because I was learning so much, and I wanted to absorb it all. So your Orlando conference, I've seen you guys in Chicago. Yeah, check those out too. It's a great way. Yeah. Cool. All right, let's go back to the board. All right, Steve, you're up.

Okay, I'll go with three. 'cause I have three incredible daughters.

You really do. Okay. Let's see. Advertising still has a long way to go before the industry is considered equitable. What role do de and I play in pitching an agency matchmaking? And I just wanna add one thought here is, you know, as, as our industry started talking a lot more about DE and I, you were the first consultant that I saw put into an RFI submission. You wanted to know the agency's mission, goals, and values, you wanted to hear what the agency was doing. And that was the first time I saw that. Now I think consultants are kind of catching on and doing it a little bit more, but I so appreciated that. And so, yeah. Steve, you wanna take the first crack at this one?

I actually wanna hear Robin talk about this if you don't make it because she has a really strong point of view, and anything I say will be border-on nonsense compared to what she says.

Robin of Mercer Island Group answers to what role DE & I play in pitching an agency matchmaking: 

I'm happy to answer this question 'cause I do have a lot of heart for this area. So first, I wanna say it is a very long way to go before the industry is considered equitable in many, many ways. So starting with gender equality, if we just start with gender, there's a whole lot of emphasis on making sure that teams are not just men, but all the way up to the top of organizations. And we are seeing more women in the c-suite and more female-owned agencies. And that's great, and that's important for the business. We're we've still a long way to go. I mean, I love seeing women in leadership in the creative categories, especially women in leadership, just generally. And I think it makes a huge difference in hiring women, keeping them so they see that they have a path forward.

So, I think progress has been made there. And I always look at a leadership team when we're bringing an agency. And because my marketers on the brand side tend to be women. You know, if you bring an all-male team to a pitch, women are wondering, so do you have any women that work there? So gender equality is the first and the easiest to talk about when it comes to the rest of the de and I category, especially around race. A long way to go is kind of just, it's not even a big enough way to talk about where we are. The industry is white. The advertising agency industry is primarily a white industry. There are some people of color in agencies. It's getting better. Definitely, I'm seeing more people of color on agency teams, even seeing people of color in agency leadership.

But it's really the exception, not the rule. And I think what ends up happening here is that people tend to hire people that are like them. People that are, that people feel comfortable with. And so unless there is a concerted effort to look at your agency, le leadership roster, your staff roster, and say, okay, what points of view, what perspectives are important in the world today for our clients who are speaking to consumers of all shapes and sizes, what voices don't we have here? What points of view do we not have in the room? And that should be the impetus to hiring people who are different from those who are already on your team, rather than the fact that it's so hard to find people of color, especially if you live in the Midwest. I've heard it from everyone. And no matter where I am, it's really hard in Boston. It's not hard anywhere if you make it a priority. So I would love to see agencies make this a priority because the role that it plays in pitching an agency matchmaking is clients notice this kind of stuff.

They absolutely notice, I think client teams tend to be more diverse than agency teams. I think that the corporate world has done a bit of a better job here in the marketing sphere than the agency world has done. It's getting better, but there's still a lot of room for improvement. And when we meet with an all-white team in an agency that's all white, someone on the client team almost always says, wow, that was an all-white team. They notice, and they don't notice in a good way, Yeah. They notice more like the pathetic way that, wow, they don't really have a lot of points of view that are relevant to our target audience. How would they speak to the Hispanic community? How will they speak to the African American community? So, it does play a role. It's not the first, not the foremost, not the most important thing in how a client chooses an agency. I wish it were more important than it is, but it's something agencies should aspire to do because it's the right thing to do for their clients, and it's good for the world.

I also think that the more diverse perspectives agencies can bring to the table, the more in tune they sound with the world, and the better the work will be. And I think an awful lot of clients today expect it. They just expect it, and they're not seeing it in the way Robin was saying.

Yeah. Yeah. And when I think about pitching too, your point and like, yeah, you gotta bring 'em to the pitch. Bring a diverse team to the pitch. But everybody has to have a role too, right? We can't just have all the women sit silent while the men speak up. You have to make sure that everybody plays an equal part in the presentation as well.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Insights from Mercer Island Group's Recent Pitches

Yeah. Good advice. Thank you. All right, let's go back to the board. Let's see. All right, Robin, what's your next number?

Let's go with 11. Just finish out the column.

Go down the row. I love it. Yeah. All right. So, okay. Well, we talked about bragging a little bit. Humble brag just a little bit here. So curiosity is one of three Mercer Island Group pitches recently with Brooks Holland and FreshDirect. And so, my question to you is, what magic do you think small agencies bring to the pitch? And then also on the flip side of that, you guys work with the big huge agencies too. What can smaller shops learn from some of the holding companies?

Robin of Mercer Island Group shares what magic small agencies can bring to the pitch: 

Yeah, I'll go first since I chose the question, Steve, and then you can come up behind it. We love that you guys have won three of our pitches. We're very proud to have had you in those pitches. You made us look really good. The clients were very thrilled to choose you in all three of those pitches. And the work that you've done for them is, is exemplary really fine work. I'm, I'm particularly fond of the fresh direct stuff that you guys have out there now. So, what magic do small agencies bring? And you know, it's interesting 'cause I do think the small agencies bring a certain kind of magic. The big agencies can never bring. There's something about a team that really knows each other, that's been in the trenches together that has, where everybody kind of knows when it's been good, when it's been bad.

Everybody knows all the business that the agency's doing. And so people can finish each other's sentences in small agencies in ways that I don't get to see as much in the bigger agencies because the teams are all over the place compared to those in the bigger agencies. So I think that there's a certain kind of magic that small agencies bring just by being small and having that connection with each other inside the agency. Oh, one of the things that the behemoths bring that the big agencies bring to the party is that they're very practiced at pitching. They have to pitch for their business because it's typically a large spend. The client has to do their due diligence by looking at several agencies. You choose the wrong agency. You can get fired as a marketer if you're spending the kind of money that big agencies typically pitch for.

So they're very practiced at pitching. Doesn't mean they're always good at it, but they're practiced at it. And I think one of the things that the small shops who are interested in the world of pitching, not all small shops want to pitch. Many of them wanna just do things through relationships and win pieces of business that come in through other means. But if you wanna pitch, you have to practice, which means you've gotta take on more pitches, not indiscriminately, always just be very discriminatory in choosing the right pitches for you. But you gotta go after them and practice and know that even if you don't win, you learn a lot from doing the pitch, you'll get better for the next one and the next one because that's what the big agencies do all day long.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — The Vital Role of Chemistry in Agency Selection

I think there are two other things that small agencies bring to the party often when really good small agencies do well. One is that the team itself often seems more like a team because they're more often working on the same projects and with the same clients. They're not spread as thin, they're not people that have never worked together before. So there's a camaraderie that just works, and it feels really good to the client when the agency team can finish, as Robin was saying, can finish each other's sentences. However, in smaller shops, the principles are invariably actively touching every piece of business. And so, with curiosity, we know that Ashley Walters, Trey Harness, and Jeff Warman are gonna be up to their elbows somehow in every piece of business. And that is really different than in the big shops where, especially with a smaller mid-size brand, the senior management probably has little knowledge of what's going on.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you guys have mentioned both of your chemistry in some capacity. How important is chemistry in selecting a new agency?

I think it's super important because I think that one, one of the interesting things about chemistry is that if, if there's strong chemistry, people are gonna think that the agency's smarter and more strategic. And it goes the other way around. If the agency comes across as being really smart and really strategic, they're gonna feel a little better, better about the chemistry anyway. So there's like a back and forth that happens there. And, and fundamentally this is a people business. Yeah. Right? So, regardless of AI and advances in marketing technology and advertising technology, we're still talking to humans every day. And we need humans to give us their best advice and to counsel us and to really feel, we wanna really feel like they're in our corner, that they've got our back, that they're worried about what we're worried, we're worried about. And so the people part of that is really, really important.

Yeah, I would agree with that, too. I mean, it's important even on the agency side, we're trying to see if there is chemistry, are we gonna work well together? How do they answer our questions? Are they okay with pushing and pulling? Yeah. I appreciate that. You can feel it, you, that feeling you mentioned, I know exactly what you're talking about when you walk in a room, and there's just such great chemistry, not just with your own team, but really collectively with the client. All right. Back to the game board.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Key Considerations for CMOs

All right, I'll go with 10 'cause I worked with Proctor and Gamble for 10 years.

We go. Well, I think, Robin, you just touched on this. So, a CMO can get fired for hiring the wrong agency. So what, three things? I'm giving you three this time. What should A CMO consider when factoring in this decision to hire a new agency?

I think, the first thing is, do they understand our, my business? Do they, can they really help me strategically? If they can't help me strategically, there's probably a limited amount that they can really do to help my business. So they have to understand my consumer or target audience. They have to understand my brand. They have to understand the competition. They have to understand how to mine and develop insights from all three of those different areas. They have to know how to apply those things. They have to be mindful of what's changing in the industry. And, of course, they need to be able to take all of that stuff and turn it into tactics that drive my business. So it starts with my business, and it ends with my business. But there's all those elements of the business that are really critical that they really have to dive into and understand to really help me get it right.

Yeah, I'll add to that. I think what marketers should be looking at is whether or not the agency pays attention to the brief. So when the agency comes into a pitch or even a written submission, is it canned? Is it just, here's how we do what we do versus here's how we solve what you've told us? The thing you need to have solved, or you need help with. Canned submissions to me are you know, there are some clients that get very excited about the shiny objects. So if an agency comes in and brings their past work, and it's really great past work, then a client could be kind of swayed or swept off their feet by the great work, but it might not be great work for their agency, and it might be a one-time thing. And so I think really clients should pay attention to whether or not the agency's focused on the brief that they're answering.

That's one thing. Another is whether or not, through the process of pitching, the agency seems to be learning. Every agency starts out not knowing anything about the client. I mean, you could do some desk research pretty early, but right off the bat, you're not expected to understand and know everything about their business. So along the way, if you have chances to interact with the client and you seem to be taking their feedback and understanding how they think and what's important to them, and adjusting the way that you're bringing your ideas forward, that should be appealing to CMOs. The way that you're asking the question is really an interesting one. It's not just what agencies should do to win, it's what the CMOs should be thinking about? 'cause They don't always think about the right things. Now, we're lucky enough to help advise a bunch of CMOs on how to think about hiring their agencies. And most of them are really appreciative when we say, here's what we think you should focus on. Don't focus on this, focus on this. They're usually very eager to listen to us. And it's really a shame when an agency loses for the wrong reasons. 'cause The CMO is looking at the wrong things from our point of view. But I think between what Steve said and my two, I think we've pretty much got it covered. A learning organization should be desirable to every CMO.

It's one of my favorite compliments, too, is when a brand says, Man, you really listen to our feedback.

Yes.

I used to give the advice at the beginning, right before we'd go into pitches to our clients, to recognize this is a very complicated decision. There's a lot going on, there are a lot of things that you need to do. But try to simplify it so they can do the work I need to be done, and do I want this group specifically to do that work? Do I like them enough to be in the foxhole with 'em, and do I have confidence they're gonna deliver? And I don't think it's one or the other. I think you really need to be confident you've got the right people who can do both of those things.

Yeah. Which kind of goes back to chemistry, right? Chemistry, trust. Which is all related. Yeah. So I heard, okay, you gotta know our, my business, the consumer, the brand, the competition. You've got to really understand that brief that I've given you. You put a lot of work into writing it. Did the agency read it one and two, did they like internalizing it and building on it? And then are they able to listen to our feedback and push and incorporate that into their final presentation? And then finally, like chemistry, the team, is it the right match? Are we gonna, do we wanna get married and work together?

Yeah. Well, that's four things. But just think, assume that we gave bonus, bonus ideas.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Do They Matter in the Eyes of CMOs?

I love a good bonus idea. I think you guys do, too, as long as it's based on strategy. All right, let's go back to the board.

Let's go with six.

Oh, you mentioned this a little bit earlier, too, which I love. So, there are a lot of award shows out there. I love them. I think, you know, some people love or hate them, but from your perspective, I think I know the answer to this: Do Agency of the Year awards matter? Can IES Adweek list small agencies? Do CMOs care about that stuff?

You know, I don't think the CMOs care about it very much, actually, because they don't follow them unless their agency is winning one for a piece of work they did like for Can. Perhaps they then, then they're interested. Agency of the year: CMOs don't care, really. Ies they care when they win one, when their brand wins a fe? So I can't think of a time, I don't wanna say I never, 'cause my brain's not perfect in terms of remembering everything, but I can't think of a time when a client said to me, Hey, I just saw this agency won a Cannes Lion. Let's include them. I can't think of a time ever. It matters, though. The awards do matter because they help you be found. In this great world of how people find agencies, search consultants should know agencies.

But we always do a little bit of a fresh search for most of our reviews. Not everyone, but most of our reviews. We take a look at a fresh search just to make sure, are there any new media agencies out there that we don't know about? Are there any new experiential agencies we don't know about? Are there any new creative agencies out there that we don't know about? As I said earlier, agencies are opening their door every day or merging or acquiring, and so on and so forth. And we wanna know. And so, how do we find them? Well, I look at awards to see who's up and coming, who might be doing great work, and who's been recognized in the industry. It also helps you land better search results. You know, content is what gets you better search results. So since most of the searches and reviews are done by clients, depending upon who you ask, it's somewhere between 75 and 85% of all reviews are run by clients themselves.

Wow.

Somebody in procurement or some junior marketer is having to find a list to bring to a senior marketer to say, here's who I think we should vet. And they Google their search. So things like awards help you get found and give a little more confidence at that moment in time that they mu there must be something there since they've won awards. But it's really more of a proof point than a way for CMOs to be noticed.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Tips for Agency Success

You guys wrote a really good article about the small agency of the year, why agencies should apply, and why CMOs should care. And so I'll link to that in the podcast show notes. Everyone can kind of check that out. But I completely agree with you. I mean, when we won a small agency, our phones definitely were ringing with people from procurement and also some new consultants that we hadn't worked with. I think sometimes they wait until you show up on a list like that before. They bring you in. So it does give you a little bit of credentialing, and maybe I should give these guys a call or a chance. So yeah, we've, we've certainly seen it play out that way as well. Alright, so enter, I think, is the theme here. All right, we'll keep entering. Let's go back to the board. All right, Steve, I think it's up to you.

Let's go with 12. Robin and I are Seahawk fans. And Seahawk, the nickname for a Seahawk fan, is you're a 12.

Alright. So I wanna talk about the tissue session here. I've got maybe some residual feelings about tissue sessions. So we all wanna know, can you give us any tips for mastering the tissue session? What are clients really looking for when they're in that moment in the process? What do the best agencies bring to that? How are they facilitating it? Anything that you can share? So we all show up a little bit better because that is a pivotal moment, and it ties back to the feedback comment because that's really our one chance to get group feedback on how they're thinking about our strategy and maybe some high-level creative ideas. What do the best agencies do?

It's such a good question, and I think you just sort of tipped off the answer, actually, because I think the best, then, and in my personal experience, the best practice is to have done enough early work that you have a pretty good sound basis for some strategic recommendations. And you've started to take it to some early ideation. The rationale here is that you want to be able to get the client to react to both, even if you're wrong on the strategy, which you, of course, want their input on. You want to be able to showcase that you have taken whatever, wherever you were in strategy and started to build tactics that matched that strategy. So that you're, you win regardless, even if they don't like the strategy. And the other point is that let's say you're, you're pretty close on the strategy.

It is an opportunity then to get some reaction to the work, whatever the tactics are, and you really want them to input. And then I'm gonna steal Robin's Sonner for just a minute. Cause what she loves, she always says, is the key to a great review for an agency is to show how you've learned. And so the real role of the tissue session is, of course, you wanna get a good start, but you wanna set up the fact that you took their advice to the finals and rode with it and really show that you're great listeners, that you applied the, the learning and that you've got a lot better. It's not unusual at all. We're in a lot of reviews right now, actually, but in several of them, the agencies that botched the tissue session, and I, by botched, I mean the strategy wasn't quite right, or it didn't really connect with the client, have rebounded and won, and it looks like they're gonna win the review.

I've been there, I feel you.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Unveiling the Importance of Tissue Sessions

Right? And this is so important. So the tissue session is really important for those reasons. It's also really important to showcase the chemistry the agency potentially has with a client. So you, you have to put, be mindful that it's not just the show about the strategy and the early work. You have to show that you're the kind of person that they should wanna work with. And so you have to, you can't over-program the tissue session. You need plenty of time for q and A for back and forth.

That's good. Robin, do you wanna add anything?

One of the things to know is that tissue sessions, and I don't know how many of the consultants do tissue sessions besides us or how many clients do them. I don't think they're common practice. There might be other versions of tissue sessions, meaning a chance to show your early thinking before you actually have to walk in and do a presentation cold and have no chance even to get any feedback on your work as you're developing it. Which is why we added it. We think that's an unfair thing to ask.

I totally agree.

Most clients have no idea what a tissue session is. We have actually developed, like, a short version of instructions for clients on what a tissue session is, what the objectives are, and what role they should play. So I think agencies get really nervous about this as opposed to thinking the way that the secret to the master of the tissue sessions is to think about it as a great advantage to you as an agency in winning the business. Think of it this way: you've been asked to do an unnatural thing, which is developed; if you're a creative agency since Curiosity is a creative agency, you're a full-service creative because since you do the planning of buying media as well. So, if you're doing a full-service pitch that includes creative planning and buying media, you're being asked to come in with one hand tied behind your back to come and show here's how here's what we think the summer campaign looks like.

Staying on your brand, on your brand guidelines. And here's where we would plan and buy the media. You may get one Q and A, where you can ask questions, and then you should show up and you should have the right answer. We think that's unnatural, and we think the whole thing's unnatural anyway, but we think it's really too difficult. So we added that tissue session because this is how you should think about it as an agency. If only we could have the chance to vet our early thinking, and we think we could nail it in the presentation. That's what the tissue session is. It's a chance to vet your early thinking, share your early strategy, share some creative territories, and share some ideas about how you're thinking about the target audience in terms of how they react and respond to media. I've seen so many agencies in the last couple of pitches that we did for small brands that have not a huge media spend but enough media for an agency to be interested and have a very particular target audience. And in the tissue session, the media agencies got the target wrong.

Well, that would really be terrible if you went all the way to a presentation with the wrong target audience. So that was a chance for the client to come back and say, you're really leaning into Gen Z. Just a little too much there. Since our audience is a little bit older. In any case, this is a chance, the secret of the tissue session is to understand where it fits in your ability to win the business.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Reimagining Tissue Sessions

I like that. Is that document that you've created for CMOs, is that public or is it on your website?

Would be happy to share it.

That'd be great.

Yeah, it's the instructions we give to clients about how and what the tissue session is all about. I'm happy to share them with you.

Yep. Awesome. I appreciate that. And if, and if I can, I'd share it in the podcast notes as well, so if anybody's listening, you guys could see, I think that's really helpful for us. I think oftentimes we think about the tissue session as, like, grab your box of tissues. 'cause We're all gonna be crying at the end of it. And I think we need to recalibrate it in our minds because it's a great place to get some feedback. I think what we always wrestle with is how much we share. You know, is it one strategy or two? And is it four ideas or two?

I think it's one strategy. I think you've gotta have your strategies pretty solid, and you check it out. Typically, if the strategy is good, the clients don't push back hard on the strategy. The strategy is there. They understand where you're going, it makes sense. They might give you a little bit of information about the target audience. We think you might have missed a little bit on the target. That gives you a chance to adjust the strategy for the next round and see if that impacts the creative or media planning in a big way. But for creative, I think sharing a couple of creative territories how the strategy could come to life creatively, two or three territories, maybe three, say here are three different ways that strategy could come to life creatively and get their temperature and have them be a bit different one, a little riskier, one a little more conservative, and it's a way to take their creative temperature and know what they might be open to and get some direction for your final.

Having just one is always a big risk. Yeah, presenting one creative concept is a terrible idea. People like to be able to pick, rank, and compare. If you put all your eggs in one basket, there's a good chance those eggs are going to break.

Yeah, that's great advice. Bring two concepts. We've always heard that from you and have always tried to do that. And then sometimes we bring four, and then it's too much, and then nobody can remember any of 'em. So we're just a hot mess. But we love thinking about these tissue sessions a little bit differently. So, thanks for that context. All right. Let's go back to the board.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Navigating Agency-Client Relationships Post-Pitch

Let's go to five.

All right, let's go to number five. Okay. Sometimes, it takes a few projects for everyone's true colors to come out. Have you ever had an agency fire their client after winning a pitch? Or have you ever had a client fire an agency after winning a pitch? Is it ever not a match right away? Do you have any advice you can give us on the topic?

This is loaded.

We've never had something happen right after a pitch where the client fired the agency, or the agency fired the client. We have had situations where budgets got pulled right after a client hired an agency, and the agency did all that work, got awarded the business, and the budgets got pulled, you know, within a month. And then there's, there is no business. And that's just, we always feel really bad about that. Obviously, it's not our fault. It's just, you know, it's business, and it's tough. And we have had an agency pull out of a pitch once because a client behaved really badly at the very end. They were about to win a piece of business. The client just did things that clients shouldn't do and said things clients shouldn't say. The agency said we don't wanna work with these people. And just before they were gonna be awarded the business, and I think they knew they were gonna win the business, they said, so we don't think this is gonna work. And honestly, normally, I'd be really mad. We couldn't blame them.

So you know, good for them for seeing what was happening.

In a case like that, you don't blame 'em, right? No, I think we would all understand. But is there ever a time when it's too late to pull out? You've made it past the RFI; you went to the tissue session. What are your thoughts there?

Yes, the answer is definitely yes. So here's a good example. Let's say you receive an RFI, you read it, it's a brand, it's so exciting. That's really a category we really want. Boy, that looks like fun. And you don't do the work to look at the scope of work to see if the budget matches the scope. So you say yes, you go all in, and then just about a week and a half in, it's time to start doing the budget exercise, and you look at it and say, oh my gosh, there are not, there's not nearly enough money for that. Well, we're pulling out because the budget's too small. That's too late to pull out; do your homework before you say yes. Because now you've made it impossible for another agency to take your spot. So you've screwed another agency, you screwed us, and you screwed the client.

And so I'm not that forgiving in that kind of a situation, you know, once you say yes to a pitch, unless something happens like the client, something terrible on the client side or if there's a tragedy on the, on your side. We have had an agency once pull out because a principal in the agency passed away just before they were gonna pitch. And it was just, I mean, it was a family member dying essentially. So they said, sorry, we just can't do this. And we were like, okay, good choice. Yeah. Right. But your job as an agency is to vet the opportunity. And when you vet that opportunity, if you think it's right for you, stick to the end.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency — Best Practices for Running a Successful Agency Review

I think Robin's right about the industry impact of all this, right? Every agency wants more opportunities and more at-bats. And if you're late in pulling out, you've cost another agency in that bad. It's just not good form. The other thing I would suggest here also is that in terms of advice for the CMOs on this topic, make sure you run a really disciplined and thorough review. Whether you're doing it yourself or you're working with a consultant, make sure the brief is sound. Make sure that you've got criteria you're gonna use to evaluate the agencies, make sure that you've got a scope that fits your budget, and make sure you're clear about all of this stuff so that the agencies can make good decisions about whether they participate or not in how they participate. There's a big, big bonus here on the CMOs and the marketers to be really transparent about the opportunity as best they can.

Yeah. And you guys will consult with CMOs and brands, right? Even if you're not leading the review, you'll do a little bit of that upfront work with them to help make sure the pitch will run well if they wanna run it in-house. So yeah, if there are any CMOs listening right now, considering putting the business up for review, if you don't have the funds to do a full consultant LED review, there are ways that you can still get some of that advice in the early stages. Yep. You know, when a run a review is run well and when it's not, I mean, there's, there's a big difference. We oftentimes preferred consultant led reviews because it's very predictable. You know what's gonna happen, everything's very transparent as much as it can be, and that can go a long way. All right. What do you guys think? Do you have room for one more?

Sure. Up to you.

Okay, let's do it.

Go ahead, Steve.

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Mercer Island Group — Capturing the Attention of Big Brands as a Small Agency: Navigating the Pros and Cons

Let's go with number one.

Okay, here we go. Agency pitch teams love 'em or hate 'em.

I hate them. I think it's simply up to the agency to make sure that a team that will be touching the business can pitch effectively. It's basic training and selection of the right people. I've never met a client, well, one time, we met a client that wanted to see basically a pitch team, every other client we've ever had, and we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of reviews. Every client wants to see the team that's gonna work on their business.

There's nothing to add here. One thing I will add small agencies can get away with le senior leadership pitching. So, that's not the same as the pitch team. A pitch team are people who just pitch and never work on business or very rarely work on business or are so high up in the organization that yes, they'll quote unquote touch the business, but if you were to just run into them on the street and ask 'em about that client, they wouldn't be able to tell you anything. That, to me is not the same as working on the business, even though it's on under their list of responsibilities. It's a client for which they're technically responsible. They're the throat to choke, perhaps something like that. That's all just gobbledygook to me. Small agencies, though it is true in many small agencies that the principals, one of the principals, actually do know what's going on.

There are a lot of small agencies that are assigned across the leadership team. The clients are all assigned all the way up to and on the leadership team. And when it's a small enough agency, everyone on the leadership team knows their client list pretty well. So I, I think in that case, and there are some agencies where the CE, even the CEO, you know, you run into this I can think of one off the top of my head where you run into him, and he literally can tell you what's going on in all of the businesses that are on his roster. I don't know how awesome he does it, but he does. So, if you really are not gonna be someone who can answer questions about the business day to day, you shouldn't be pitching it.

You know, Robin had this great idea a few years ago that we always do now, which is going into the final presentations. This is good advice for agencies. By the time the final presentation's happening, we've seen the economics, we've seen the staffing. Robin always reminds me to have the staffing available because and we compare who's presenting to how many hours they have, if any, in the staffing. And our definition is if there are no hours that you're gonna pay for, you're a pitch team. It's as simple as that. And it doesn't matter how many times the agency says, well, they're not in the economics, but of course, they're gonna, we're gonna give you some free time, or we're gonna, you know, they were always active and always paying attention. You know that we all know how this business works. It's now, it's a people-in-hours business, and there are only so many hours in the day. No agency can give away really senior attention for free.

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Mercer Island Group: Capturing the attention of big brands as a small agency — Insights from Industry Experts

So clients know when they're getting pitch-teamed.

We know. They don't always know. So if you've got a good search consultant, the search consultant should know because we know, we know most of these agencies by this point and we know who people are. But the evergreen rule is the rule to look at the scope of work and how many hours people have. Yeah. And if you're not sure, you know, who is Ashley on my spreadsheet? You ask like, Ashley, I don't see your title on my spreadsheet. Oh, well, we use a different title in the spreadsheet. Just ask to know.

And if they can't, is there any advice on, like, how to make them feel like part of the presentation?

So we actually just ran into that for a couple of different pitches where the account exec one was getting married, and then another agency, the account exec that they wanted to be on the business, was on maternity leave. And so, as long as you're open and upfront and say, Hey, you know, should we advance to a, you know, a final round? We're happy to help you figure out a way for you to meet her. One of them, when she was getting married, she, she did a video Yeah. To say, oh, sorry, I can't be here. You know, and actually not so sorry 'cause I'm getting married, you know, that kind of cute. Something fun. You get to know her personality. And then when we get to a final two, or we're really deciding, then there's always an opportunity to meet that person. Is it ever a case where that person doesn't work there? Like small agencies? You know, sometimes, if it's a big enough opportunity, we're gonna have to hire. Is it okay to be that transparent, or is it not?

I think so. I think that's absolutely fine. I think it's simply important to be transparent when using your words. I wanna add one more thing to this pitch team thing. There is a circumstance that often shows up where it's okay to have somebody in the pitch that isn't on the, the scope of work isn't gonna be staffed, and that's somebody from senior leadership. It's as long as they open the meeting, close the meeting, and simply say how delighted they would be for the client to select their agency. They shouldn't have a really prominent speaking role. They just open and close, and that's fine. Clients love to know that somebody, somebody in senior leadership, really is gonna look after it and wants the business. They just if they're not in the business, though, they just shouldn't be part of the main pitch.

Great advice. All right. We have a super secret final question if you guys are down to do it. So this is rapid fire. You have to answer both at the same time. This is our lightning round. You are gonna say, is it Steve or Robin? All right, here we go. Question one. Who's more likely to give the most honest feedback? Robin.

Robin, who's more likely to spoil the grandkids?

Yeah. Probably more me.

Who's more likely to throw the first pitch at a Mariners game?

Well, Steve, who's more likely, but we're at a zero possibility here.

I don't know if the ball will make it to home plate anymore, though, so it's definitely more likely.

Maybe I can roll it forward, you know. That's great. All right. Who's more likely to recommend Curiosity to a client?

Oh, that's a tie.

I agree with that.

Oh, I love that. Thank you both so much. This was incredible. Thank you for your transparency and insights. You guys are, and you give back so much to our industry through your education, openness, and honesty. And you guys have taught me a lot about the importance of feedback indeed in my whole career. And I'm just so grateful for you and all that you do for all of us. It's not an easy industry, but it sure is a ton. Of fun, and I'm so glad that you're part of this and we're part of your journey and you're part of ours, so thank you so much.

You're so welcome. Thank you so much for having us.

Yep. Thank you very much.