Hello, everyone. Welcome to Question Everything, a podcast all about learning from the successes and the failures of those who dared to, well, question everything. This podcast is part interview, part therapy, and part Price is Right. We have our own game board stacked with questions that'll make even the most successful CMOs sweat. I'm your host, Ashley Walter, CMO and partner at Curiosity. On today's episode, I sit down with Simone and Rachel, co-founders of NBZ Partners, a growth consultancy focused on client and agency matchmaking and helping agencies create an ownable brand and winning growth strategy. On today's episode, they share practical tips on how to set your brand and agency up for future growth, including three things you can do to find your superpower, why strong branding is the ultimate pipeline builder, and how you can earn your network. After all, it's not about who you are. It's about who you know, but who knows you. Let's get started.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: Simone & Rachel Introduction 

We have a two-guest podcast today. The smart and always best-dressed ladies from NBZ Partners welcome co-founders Simone Oppenheimer-Mandel and Rachel Siegel. Hello, how are you? So honored to be here today. Man, I am so excited to have you both. You're looking amazing. Love the news. You swag. Yours is on the way. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I'm dying. I need that sweatshirt in my life. So I just want to brag on you both a little bit. So Simone and Rachel are co-founders of NBZ Partners, a growth consultancy that helps small to mid-sized businesses compete with the big guys. Simone brings 18 years of experience driving new business for agencies like Ogilvy, VML, Y&R, and Future Brand. And she's earned herself the nickname, Open Hammer, which I cannot wait to learn more about, for her ability to lead them through uncomfortable growth challenges.

Rachel is a master brand builder, helping launch iconic brands like Seedlip and leading global accounts for Colgate, Intel, and General Mills in her 15-year career. She's a master at telling brand stories and capturing eyeballs from all across the industry. So welcome officially to the podcast. We're so glad to have you. Thank you so much. This is so cool. Thank you so much with you and your incredible expertise. So I'm so curious, tell me, how did NBZ come to be? Oh my goodness, yes. This is my favorite story to recall actually. Simone and I met running new business together. I, as you mentioned, come from almost two decades of branding and we met at a branding firm. It was Simone's first time at a branding firm, and my first time actually in a formal new business role.

Um, I had run accounts prior to that so client services, um, and we came together with this really kind of interesting dual lens on how to create growth for the agency. And it was this idea that brand is a really powerful lever for growth for business growth, and it felt like like marketing 101 in some ways when you think about kind of you know what we do for clients all the time but agencies themselves, and we experienced this at every agency we had worked worked at up until that point. But agencies themselves do do forget how important their own brand is in driving meaningful differentiation in a crowded landscape, and there is no landscape more crowded than the agency landscape.

Um, so we put a lot of effort into establishing you know a real brand and bringing it to life in a lot of different ways in a constellation of sorts of marketing initiatives. We saw a suite of changes uh in a really short amount of time, I think inside of about eight or nine months we doubled our win rate, we had a level press pickup, we had a really healthy active pipeline from clients that we wanted to work with um, and then COVID hit and it was like The world was in free fall, and things had you know, uh, doesn't need to be said changed overnight. And the holding companies just wasn't conducive to making that kind of um pivot quickly.

And so we thought, we've proven this, it's not a hypothesis, we know this approach works, and it works for, you know, the holding companies. What if we made this sort of open source and accessible to what we lovingly kind of refer to as the unusual suspects of the industry, the end-of-the-agency types that are diverting from business as usual, the ones that want to do things differently? Um, and that have such a rich opportunity to use. Their brand in this way because so often founders are still involved, and you've got you know, incredible DNA to kind of work from um, and so we created MVZ to democratize the win and to take everything that we had created, and you know, use this approach, and make it uh, make it accessible to, to the small to medium-sized agencies in uh, in our in our industry,

um, and that's what we did, and it was like the world was in free fall, and we thought it's better to take your destiny into your own hands and jump rather than to just fall, and it felt like it was like we've never believed in something more and we've never looked back, incredible. I mean, that's the playbook right there, right? It's yeah, you eat clients want to work with agencies who show up and who are attractive, and I feel like a lot of times on the agency side, at least, we don't put enough energy into our brand and our branding and our story, and it's like we do it for all these incredible global organizations, but we have such a hard time doing it for ourselves.

But that's what wins; that's what sets you up for success. That's incredible! I just read the other day that you launched a new um product business line called NBZ Match. I'm so curious, what are you seeing in the industry um that made you Guys want to bring that into the market, well like Rachel said, our kind of our mission was to democratize the win right and there is a gap in the industry on a focus for the unusual suspects and to match them with the brands that are looking for the modern current solution for their briefs and we needed to we need to create a stage and an opportunity for these agencies, these small to mid-sized independent agencies; we need to create a stage and a platform for them to connect with the clients who are looking for them.

We spoke to a lot of clients, a lot of marketers over the past I would say two years um, who continuously told us when We asked them how are you finding your agencies, um, and you know for the agencies for the for the clients are looking to round out their portfolio not just the main holding company agency or they have a new to world brand or new to world um uh product that they're putting into market that perhaps is a challenger that is looking for a different perspective on how to approach it in market, um, and they were looking, they were googling, they told us we're googling our agency first it was word of mouth and from word of mouth was we google and we looked at ourselves, we're like this is an opportunity, this is an opportunity to uh represent.

A connection between these Fortune 500 marketers that are looking for different solutions and the agencies that we were created to support and to love and to um democratize the win for them isn't that fascinating, like one of the most important decisions you can make on behalf of your brand and one of your biggest investments is found via Google, it's crazy, it's crazy. And so we said, 'You know what? Let's let's represent this in the marketplace um and you know and and help brands really, brands and marketers are our clients. Agencies can't pay for the service, it's not that's you know against the ethical standards of of what' We believe in today, and um, we work with them to connect them to the agencies and not necessarily traditional ways of long processes um, but allowing for flexibility and how you connect with an agency whether those you know setting up coffee dates or

you know, you know, quick chemistry meetings because we know it's a people business finding different ways also within this process is really important for us, yeah. And I would I would just add to that that like an intentional effort as we think about our broader sort of business model around NBZ to never let Match sort of become an overwhelming revenue driver for us, because Then, we're incentivized to make it you know cost a certain amount or take a certain amount of time to warrant a certain price tag. There's a there's a an aspect of match that marketers get for free as a complimentary service again it's a it's a way for us to further deliver on our promise to agencies; we exist for agencies and the unusual suspects, and that is that that is our north star that filters all of our strategic sort of decision making even as it relates to to the offering you know that we present to marketers too.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: Tips for excellent agency branding

That's great, well as an unusual suspect I'm excited to dig into the game board so you guys know how this works. We've got 12 super secret questions, um, you don't know what's behind which number, and the power is completely in your hands, so are you guys up for the challenge? Oh my goodness, yes! Let's pick number eight. Okay, so while we were just touching on this agency, brands matter. So why, in your opinion, do you think agencies are so bad at branding themselves? And do you have any helpful tips on what they should be doing, yeah? I mean it's kind of the same brand all the time, I mean, all of our clients come to us, all of our agency clients come to us, so many of them and need help in figuring out perhaps not necessarily of what makes them special like They know in their heart what is their DNA; the good ones, the ones that have really been putting in the work.

The question is how do we connect that and how do we ensure and pressure test that? That's what clients in the external worlds need and asking for, so how do we take this DNA, how do we take what is special about that if you take the DNA of what we're doing, what is them and message it in a way that connects with what clients are looking for. And that is a lot of the work we do. Why are agencies bad at it? Rich and I talk about the hairdresser with the bad haircut, the architect who can't design its own house. There is something that just gets in the way of doing your own art form on yourself that we're not necessarily so different from other categories and other, other professions.

And we were, they require agencies require an external perspective, their own agency in looking at their brand from an external perspective and perhaps sometimes telling them what other people are doing, what marketers are looking for and giving them the tools to do it for themselves. Yeah. I think also a really, for a brand to be really compelling, it has to be so built in service. Of a specific audience or a, a, you know, someone who's going to consume that brand and it has to be so, you know, really laser focused and, and again, specific. And so I think agencies find that limiting and there's like a fear of niche. Like if I, if, if, if being a strong, compelling brand means I have to put a stake in the ground around who I am and who I'm for and what I do really well, that's going to limit me too much.

And I want to go to market with, with the communication that I can do anything for anyone. And, and so I'll get all the calls and that we know for a fact that that doesn't work in the marketing that we do for our clients. But I think it is, I think when you're in charge of a brand and a business, you want to see the business grow. So you want everything, you want all of it. You want to say yes to all of it. But a brand is just as much about being selective about what you say and not distracting from like the core things that really, you know, matter in communicating who you are. And I think agencies are really reluctant to put a stake in the ground. Yeah.

I, I, there's a lot of, there's a lot of fear around that. I think I, if you followed our story at all at Curiosity, we went through a pretty big overhaul about five years ago where, you know, the name Curiosity was beautiful and brilliant and it meant so many things, but we hadn't done much to actually weave it through our story and our process and our culture. And I think, you know, when you, when you pick something and you double down on it, like for us, I think it was Curiosity and what that meant. You really have to like tighten that up. Yeah. And create that thread through everything that you do. Yeah. So many times agencies come to us and they're looking for a line, right? 

And the line is never going to be different, right? The line is a string of words that some agency somewhere is going to have. And it's never the line that creates the positioning or creates the brand. It's the behavior, right? It's like, how do I take Curiosity to your point and how does it impact every choice I make? How does it impact how I brief? How does it impact how I select the clients I want to work with? How does it impact what I look like and sound like? Who I hire. Exactly, who I hire. How does it impact what choices from a marketing perspective? I mean, it makes complete sense that you would have a podcast where you're curious about how the world works, right? And so it's about living that positioning.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: What our love lives can teach us about pitchin

It's about living your DNA. And it's about putting that out in the world and then pulling the things that see themselves in you. Because you've been so committed to who you are, you start being a magnet for the right opportunities and the right people and the right platforms. Agree. All right, good advice. Let's go back to the game board. So how about number six? So we talk about this a lot, right? Pitching is a lot like dating. So what, in your opinion, would you say our love lives can teach us about client, brand, agency relationships? It's interesting. It actually is really connected to what we were just talking about in terms of being yourself. You know, authenticity in dating is obviously key, right?

If you show your genuine self as early as possible, you'll really learn quickly if there's a compatible match there. Even if you're effective at convincing somebody early on that you are what they want, it doesn't end well, typically. If you want a sustainable long-term relationship, it has to be a long-term relationship. It has to be built on, I am exactly what you're looking for. And the quicker and better you can get at communicating that, you'll see a lot more kind of sustainable relationships over sort of, you know, short wins. And I think, you know, again, speaking to the DNA, think about what your unique selling points are, even as a person in a dating situation, the same way that you would, you know, as an agency, talking about kind of what makes you different with a client.

And I think that also goes to, like, what you're pitching. Like, if I show up myself, can I? Can I win, right? Either, either let's hedge it, but I'm still going to show up as myself, right? Or, you know what? No, and I can't win, and I'm not willing to take that risk. But either way, showing up as yourself is the only, the only way to have any opportunity to be successful. Because trying to be someone else, someone else is better at that, right? And so pitching is all about bringing, like, 110%. If you can't bring 110% as yourself in order to win, you're not going to be successful. You've lost. Yeah. I always say, too, like, passion wins almost every time. Like, a lot of agencies are going to come in with a good strategy.

I mean, maybe not a lot, but most. When you get to, you know, some of these bigger pitchers, they're all great agencies. Someone's going to have a great idea, maybe even a better idea than you. But passion and showing how much you want the business and how much it's going to mean to you and your team to work on it, I think, is an under-leveraged, like, kind of characteristic. Like, that not all agencies bring into the pursuit. Yeah, 100%. Even the word pitch, for me, is, like, really triggering. Because I know we use it a lot in our industry, and I use it, too. But, like, when you're pitching, like, you're trying to get a fastball by somebody, right? You're trying to, like, throw a curveball.

Like, when we talk about it internally, we talk about it in terms of it's a pursuit, right? It's a journey. Like, we're not trying to trick anybody here, get anybody out. We're really just trying to follow this pursuit and see if it's a good fit. Yeah, and I know you asked that. The question was about love life, right? And dating. And so, if you're trying to pursue someone by being somebody else, I mean, at the end of the day, it's just not going to work out. I mean, you might have tricked him or her at the beginning. But, you know, Rachel and I talk about, like, if that person wants, like, a go-getter, like, I don't know, a career go-getter, and you're not really want to be that, so that's not really your thing, you can kind of fake it.

But then, at the end of the day, you have to show in some way, improve, and live, and behave that way. So, it's not a match on either side that necessarily is going to be long-term and fruitful. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think the moral of the story here, like, know who you are. Like, what's at the core of your DNA? What are you really great at? What are you best at? And it's finding the matches that kind of match to you. Yeah. I mean, we work with so many founders, right? They have such a rich history and such a rich, kind of, headspace in terms of, like, you decided to take a chance and do this. So, let's answer the question, like, what would the world lose if you went away?

Because there was something missing that you needed to fill. You decided to take a risk. You decided to, you know, a lot of, you know, agencies, we had to remortgage our house. I told the kids, there's a famous story of this amazing agency that's super successful now. But when we were talking to the CCO five, six years ago, he was telling us, he told his kids, they're going to have to kind of limit spend. They're going to have to, you know, take a break in the summers on their, on their vacations and camps and things like that. And so you're taking a lot of risk and a lot of people aren't in with you. So there was something, there was a gap that you wanted to fill.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel:  Activating your network 

Get back there and figure out what that was, because it's the thing that's going to differentiate you. It's the thing that's special about you. It's the thing that if the world, if you went away tomorrow, that the industry would lose. And after a few years, I think people forget about that because, and it's not their fault, just the day to day and how crazy the industry is. But getting back there in such a competitive environment and being proud of that and purposeful is what separates the winning agencies from the ones that just get kind of lost. That's great. All right. Back to the game board. 11. So you've said that your network is your currency. So give us all some tips and tricks for activating our network. Well, I think we have a mantra.

We have a mantra that we live by, it, which is, you know, in activating your network, you have to show up, you have to show up and that's like, you know, in real life, digitally across all channels, show up. And you know, if you're doing all the other things that we've been talking about throughout this conversation, being yourself and putting a stake in the ground, and then also having a presence where, you know, where the industry is, I think that's sort of step one that again, gets too forgotten too often, actually, that agencies are not necessarily showing up where they, where they need to. And I think also with this idea that you can buy a network or buy a pipeline, or, you know, somehow someone you hire someone and the light and the switch is going to turn on, and you know, your network is suddenly going to grow, and the phone's going to start ringing, or whatever your email is going to start blowing up.

But that's just, it's not the case, right? Like Rachel said, showing up, what does that mean? It means putting in the work. A lot of agencies, a lot of agency leaders come to us and they say, we run a company, we have a business, and we have all these different people that come to us. So you can't run out of friends. You can't buy friends. You can't buy friends in the real world. You can't buy friends in the business world. You have to earn the right to have these friends. You have to spend the time and the effort and do the work. It takes work, and anyone that tells you that it doesn't, anyone that tells you that they should hire them from a consulting perspective or a day-to-day employee.

It's just not going to work. And you're not setting yourself up for success. You're not setting the employee or the consultant up for success. Okay. About putting in the work to expand your network, and then showing up - like Rachel said, showing up in life, showing up on LinkedIn, showing up in email, showing up doing interesting things like podcasts and thought leadership. It takes work to create a network and to enable your network. You know, enabling your network, I think you know, word of mouth is also the number one vehicle that marketers are using to find their agencies, and so even if you've run through your own friends, they have friends and they have networks, and so if you enable and arm them and empower them with again, think about it as like a formal channel.

What are the assets that I give them? What messaging can I give them so that when they're having a conversation at a barbecue or whatever with a colleague, they know Oh, you need an agency that does that. I've got one, and this is their superpower this is what they do, this is what makes them better and better and better and better and different from others um, and make sure that they have the things that they need, the tools they need to... to you know further that that kind of uh that message across their own network. And I think you know if if we can if we can maximize word of mouth in that way, that's another really really interesting way to to think about your network.

I think that's so important and don't be afraid to ask, I mean I think oftentimes we're like too timid to ask for a referral or recommendation. Or hey, would you introduce me to this person or that um? And I've yet to have somebody tell me no, so um, I think just having the bravery and the courage to ask uh. You said something about uh, the pipeline that just kind of gave me a chuckle, i uh. Somebody in the industry I was talking to, and she asked me um, so like how many cold callers do you have? And I was like, 'You're asking the wrong question.' Like, you don't you don't need anybody cold, like if you are cold calling anybody right now, like just stop. We gotta talk about what the bigger problem here is.

Like, it really does go back to building that brand in your story that will help fill your Pipeline more than hiring any kind of a lead generation service, I have an inappropriate metaphor which is when I was i'm here for it, I was getting divorced, my ex-husband said that my lawyer has a commercial right. Okay, if your lawyer needs a commercial, something's wrong with the lawyer. Your agency requires a lead gen person; something is wrong with the agency brand and we need to figure out what to do to fix that to get it um into a way that is going to resonate with the external world. Something is broken and it doesn't mean the agency is broken; it's a marketing problem, not necessarily a product problem, and that is what this Industry does best, that's right, great advice, all right.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: The NBZ Slack Channel

Let's go back to the game board, oh boy, okay. Let's see... um, let's go with number three. Okay, so you guys are known for having a very active and amazing Slack community, in which I am very blessed to be a part of. So I'm not going to spill any secrets, but what can you tell our listeners about your super secret amazing Slack community? I'll say a couple things, and then I'll hand it over to Simone, but I think... um, you know one thing that really struck us is as we were building the community, we were told over and over again that this Slack channel that is exclusively made up of agency new business professionals. Will not do well because they are notoriously private and secret, and you know keeping cards close to their chest, nobody's going to share um, and we have found the complete opposite. 

I think even in areas delicate areas, perhaps everyone is so conscientious about what is shared, never exposing their own agency, but so transparent and so generous with things that you know again I think make the bar raised on the industry as a whole, and I think we all have that mentality, um, you know. So, in terms of specifics, I don't know if someone if there's specifics that you want to share, but I think across the board, we're seeing so much more generosity and transparency around ways of working and you know lessons learned and and things that really are about you know living generously which is another sort of core tenet of of nbz and

how simone and i work i mean i think it's just tapping into this idea and this feeling that new business people or leaders of agencies that are are responsible for new business feel like they're on an island sometimes and there's this kind of older historical um you know guardrails around you as a new business person and there's no socialization and there's like a lack of community and i think we just like tapped into something we're like you know what we can share and we can be better together and of course there's limits to what we want to share just like humans we have limits to what we know is appropriate to share and not

but we crave the camaraderie and the community um and we tapped into just something that lit that up in people what do they share they talk about you know we are responsible for growth numbers and there's a lot we ask of our agency to invest in us to hit that hit that right and we want to be um we want to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be conscientious that are the investments That we're asking our agencies are going to be fruitful, so there's conversations around what events um are, are working for you right? Those are expensive things right?

What um awards feel like they are creating the most conversation um, you know it's, you know I need, I have been given a budget to create a team right? What type of roles or what type of structure is that works best for let's say a new business and marketing team that works together? What in people's experience works best um, does anyone have anyone to hire in these roles um, does anyone want to hire someone that I know is available for new business um, you know my my Leadership has you know targets, uh, that they want to hit. How can I how what kind of plan can I create and what should that look like and feel like um that that leads the team that leads the team um on a kind of a work a work plan to get there?

What does that growth plan look like? What should it look like? I mean, it's anything from kind of foundational new business tools all the way up to you know congrats on the huge promotion and someone said it feels like a warm hug when you enter the Slack, that's great. I know I've really benefited from just meeting lots of new people and like you said anytime you're you know we're headed to Boston for A small agency, and there's a group now that's talking about Boston, and how we could have all meet up, and um I think the island thing is really interesting too. I know I've personally experienced it on teams that I've been a part of where you feel like business development is kind of reserved for an elite group of individuals, and they're kind of tucked away in the office, the door is locked, nobody really knows what's happening in there, and it can get a little lonely.

And, and I don't know, like you're not getting the support and the visibility within an organization that you need, and I know for me that was like a big thing when I got the opportunity to to run a team, it was like, 'no, we need full transparency.' Business development is everybody's responsibility, and how do we get people excited about that and want to participate in it versus saying, 'oh no, no, no, that's too hard or that's extra work' and I don't want to be a part of that team. So um, yeah, I really appreciate that, and I will tell you so just like a personal story for me... We we had been just like cranking on new business and winning a lot; we were on a big huge winning streak, and then we had two big losses back to back, and you kind of like, you

know, you got to take a deep breath and um, reevaluate everything Of course, because that's what we do, and I posted just something in the Slack channel that said 'Hey, we're coming off a couple of hard losses. How do you guys collect feedback and share it with your team, and action against it?' And I got so many responses that I actually went in and developed a whole like post pursuit process on how we collect feedback, give feedback, and learn from our wins and our losses, so That's so nice to hear. Yes, again, generous. And then re-sharing that, what you've developed. I know you've re-shared it with the community. And so, that kind of like, that kind of like just cycle of just like learning and sharing and learning and sharing, it's just going to raise us all up.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: How Technology is changing BD

It's going to raise all of the agencies, especially the unusual suspects up. Yes. Thank you. That's great. Thank you for the community. All right. Let's go back to the game board. Number one. Let's go. Number one. So let's talk about technology. How do you guys think technology is changing business development? I think that, yeah, I mean, AI isn't just all technology, but it is definitely something that we're hearing everybody talk about. And certainly Simone and I are looking for ways to, you know, use AI more and more, even in our own business. And I think that, you know, there's obviously limitations to things like chat GPT, but we're seeing a lot of interesting tools pop up in, you know, we did actually a virtual event with our membership community around using AI for your, for RFIs.

And is there like a streamlined way to start thinking about how we approach some of those really cumbersome kind of things, but still making it feel rich and customized and sort of personal to the agency. I think equally Simone and I have also invested for our members in a platform called Waldo, which is another kind of AI. Powered research tool that we're finding, you know, really helpful and useful in thinking about like smart start decks and, and, you know, prospecting strategies. So I think there's a lot of AI tools right now that are starting to pop up that, that have interesting applications, I think for, for new business as a discipline. I mean, I think everything Rachel said, and I think that because new business people, so much of our time is in like the minutia and the detail and, you know, the stuff that is.

Pulling together sources and you know, organizing things and pulling from here and pulling from there that I think right now, what AI is doing well for new business is helping us with that stuff, helping us with the efficiency of what has been so, you know, inefficient for new business people for so long and is the stuff that we want to kind of like scratch, scratch our eyes out with. Right. And so helping us craft, you know, emails faster helping us pull together RFIs from different sources that we would have had a poll, like through our, through our, our, our databases and our servers ourselves organizing things like Rachel said, the smart start decks that would take, who can help us with this? Oh, nobody's developed a strategy. No one's available from account. 

I guess we'll have to do it. Right. And so the stuff that just takes time, and that our time would be better suited doing things that you need to be like a human to do. I think it's, it's just allowing us to bring us up to do that work. Yeah. I think Waldo's a great solution. Uh, we'll definitely link to them, um, in the podcast notes, but you know, I, I know where everyone's trying, you know, some pursuits take forever, let's be honest, but I do think the industry is getting much better at speeding up the pursuit process. I always tell my team, we typically have about 14 days, 14 working days to go from completely unaware to solving all of their marketing challenges, at least, at least solving the brief. 

Right. And so what you do in those 14 days. Like is so important. And I think AI is really great in those early phases, just to speed you up and get you to solving the challenge much faster. Exactly. And I think to Simone's point, freeing you up to be even more present in some of those moments, the human moments that have to be, you know, really turned up to volume 11 too, because it's still a people's business and you still have to be able to pursue a relationship, but like, you know, systematize and streamline the things that are, you know, are kind of holding us back from that or, or. You know, weighing us down. That's great. All right. Back to the game board. Okay. Let's do number nine. Oh, wait, sorry.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: How to have the most engaging meeting in the shortest time

Rachel's your turn. I'm sorry. No, you pick. Well, we're kind of all over the place now, to be honest, I'll go with nine too. Oh, I'm dying to know this. So share your tips, anything that you can help us with on having the best meeting in the shortest amount of time and having the client gauged the entire time. That's the goal, right? That's the end goal. And I think I read somewhere that you said. Like, that's really what we're aiming to do. So any tips, how have you seen people show up and make that happen? Okay. The shortest way of using, using like if we have 30 minutes with a client, how do we make sure we have the best 30 minutes? Right.

I mean, keep them engaged and not bore them to death, and not bore them to death. So honestly, I think this might be, you know, there's things like know who you are, make sure you get through that fast, do your homework, make sure you know who the client is, get to their business problems, like things that I think we all know as professionals. Here's unpopular opinion, perhaps: love, which usually I know what she's going to say. I don't even know what she's going to say right now. So, new business isn't a democracy, right? And throwing and, and, and I guess creating a meeting and pulling in, um, team members that perhaps cannot deliver the best meeting in 30 minutes, because that is a talent and that takes experience and that takes seniority, um, is not going to get you the best, the best use your 30 minutes, put in your best people.

Right. And I'm sorry if people's feelings get hurt. It doesn't mean they can't be off-camera and like learning and absorbing because training the next level of talent, especially for new business is so, so important. So don't confuse that. I'm not saying that. However, the people who have the experience, the seniority, and the chemistry with each other will get you a good 30 minutes. Um, and I would say that. That, that doesn't happen enough. Yeah. I think you become too nice from a new business perspective. Even if it means someone doesn't get to present their own creative idea or, you know, someone else is taking, taking kind of the, the lead in, in areas that, you know, it doesn't feel natural from internal dynamics, but I think, yeah, to Simone's point, you want the best of the, of the agency to demonstrate the, the, you know, the highest potential of the agency and that takes the best people in the room.

Yeah. But to someone's point something like kind of controversial then, like, so I would, what's your take on pitch teams, love them hate them. Like pitch teams that are always pitching. And then like the same team, every pitch. Well it means you're not training people. It really means you're not training people. I would say that having a understanding of who is best and then how you are training people to get there. Right. And so setting that caliber within an agency. Yeah. And doing learning and development, doing lunch and learns, pairing people together to be able to train the next team and the next team so that you have a few of the best pitch teams. If you have only one pitch team, to me, it's shouting that you haven't invested in training anybody.

I agree. One of the first things that I did is once we wrote the pursuit playbook, and I highly suggest anybody listening do something very similar, is I put every single employee through an onboarding process. And now every new hire that comes through Curiosity, including interns, are trained on our process from within the first week that they start. And it has been an absolute game changer in terms of the pool of people we can bring in to pursuits. Train your people. Stay ready so you don't have to get ready. You know, make sure that everybody is just, you know, ready to get off the bench at any given moment. Love that. All right, let's go back to the game board. I think we have time maybe for two more. Yep, let's go.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: How an agency can find their superpower 

We're almost going to clear this board. Rachel, you take another one because I stole your last one. Let's go with five. Okay, so let's talk superpowers. You've touched on this a little bit, but I think it's so important for an agency and a brand to really know who they are, what they stand for, and what is that like one thing that they bring that nobody else can bring. And I know you train agencies and help agencies in discovering and uncovering and figuring out the story behind it. So I'm curious, any advice you can give to agencies now who are kind of in that process and looking to uncover theirs? Yeah, we have kind of an unofficial formula that we think about and, of course, exercises that help kind of bring all of this out.

But, you know, the first thing we think about is like, what's your core capability? And I think part of it is like, how do we create wayfinding a little bit for clients? Like, what aisle of the grocery store am I going to find you in? What kind of agency are you? There's a lot of agencies that are sort of, you know, trying to, you know, we're the anti-agency, we're, you know, this fancy word, that fancy word, but like, just plainly spoken, what is your core capability? What are kind of some of the key differentiators, you know, within your DNA? So we think about like, you know, what's your founder's kind of background? And, you know, maybe there's the, oh, he came from the newsroom.

Well, then we've got this sort of editorial vibe that's sort of a unique thing about us that even other digital agencies might have similar capabilities. We have an editorial spin on ours because of where our founder comes from. Or, you know, there's a whole lot of a constellation of things DNA-wise that I think, you know, would be really interesting to kind of pull out. And then the last thing is, what are the ideal briefs, the ideal client that, you know, you exist to solve or exist to work with or exist to partner with? If we think about those three things, and again, not being scared to limit ourselves and really put a stake in the ground, like, what is our core capability? What are the things that we need to do? 

What are the things that make us different from other agencies that tout that same capability? And what is our dream brief? And those things start to really shape up a nice kind of superpower and a space that you can own because the DNA makes it uniquely yours. And, you know, I think that's kind of, those are the things that we look at in terms of kind of an equation or a formula, you know, but again, there's a zillion ways you can kind of slice it. That's incredible. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Last question. What do you think? Okay, let's go back to the game board. Which one's it going to be? Ashley, you pick this one. Oh, man. Okay, hold on. Let me look at the team.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities  

Simone & Rachel: AOR vs project-based work in the industry

Is there one you guys are dying to do? 10. It sounds like it's number 10. All right, let's go. I honestly don't even know what's behind all of these. All right. So what does fewer AOR gigs and more project-based work mean for our industry? And why should clients enter a real relationship with an AOR? A real relationship meaning an AOR? An AOR relationship, yeah, versus like project-based. So I would say, what does the shift mean? I would say there's a lot of, and we work with them, a lot of wonderful, but like legacy agencies, one that have had like a lot of history in the industry that are in need to shift basically everything, how they operate, right? How they invest in clients. How they, how they, how do they create teams?

How do they client manage? How do they deal, you know, when it comes to budgeting and, and, and scoping, right? It's literally an entire, an entire re-look at everything that you believed has been true over the past 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years. So that's, you know, a hard pill to swallow, but we work with a lot of them. And helping them shift all of that and understanding what they need to do to stay competitive today from a, I would say a more of a newer agency. So I would say last five to 10 years ish. I would say this is what the world expects of you is to know how to operate with a project-based mentality.

It doesn't mean that project-based can't start looking like an AOR, but it requires you to continuously invest in it, to be proactive, to have a new business sensibility, even when they are clients, right? So when you are still project-based, you're forced for it, for everyone to operate as if you're continuously trying to win the business. When you are more of an AOR, have more of an AOR relationship. I think that we, um, that we flex in different areas and, and those two are not necessarily the same. Yeah. I think it just, I think it just reinforces the need for a strong brand because you, you want people consistently seeking you out as a partner and, and because you're going to need that, that pipeline,

um, to Simone's point, the, a lot of the AOR relationships and, you know, the days of being able to just consistently put out work with the ongoing relationships that you have, um, you know, you're, you're going to have to kind of, you know, go to market more with a more fierce proposition and command that attention, uh, to, to get the kind of pipeline that, that really, you know, will, will facilitate sustainable growth. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much to unpack there. I think, um, for us, you know, what I see daily is like, we try to take on a few important projects in a given year that, that we're excited about the team wants to work on and maybe the budgets are a little bit smaller.

So we're willing to make kind of that investment and take a chance on it. And the hope is that, yeah, our people can convert them into more of a longer-term relationship, but we get to see what it's like to work together. And some of them, you know, it ends up not being a good fit and that's okay. Um, it's almost like, uh, you know, you're entering a pay-to-pitch kind of a mentality where it's like real work. So we're seeing how we're going to work together and you know you hope most of them convert and and some of them might not but we are very intentionally trying to create space so that we can say yes to some of those opportunities.

Totally And again in enforcing new business mentality and behavior into everybody at the agency I think is, is, is is is the or what does organic growth mean at that point when it's so project-based you know um it means a more aggressive approach to new business for clients that you've had in the past And it's it's it's a change in behavior from what we've seen um at agencies as it relates to growth Yeah And I think not forgetting some of those AOR clients too right? Like you have to know the ones that you should be investing in and really pouring extra into so that those continue to grow. And they continue to see you showing up in your best ways possible.

Like we will often say, 'love the one you're with', you know, like you got to put some of that BD energy and love into those accounts too. Yeah, for sure. Yes. It's knowing the ones that, that you have to continuously love that somehow lose their, their shine when they're with you for so long, but you have to, you have to, you have to remind yourself how lucky you are and how you have to keep inspiring them and be proactive. Right. I think what we see all the time is that one of the biggest reasons why AORs leave agencies is, is because they've lacked, they feel a lack of proactiveness as it relates to creativity or strategy or research or thinking or, or people and resources and continuously investing in them, um, is what creates longer, longer relationships.

Yeah. Anticipating their needs, right? The more you know about them and their business, the more you can anticipate what they, I was, when I was pregnant, I always told my husband, can't you just like anticipate my needs? And he would show up with water sometimes and be like, look, this is me anticipating your needs. So, you know, it goes back to the, he's an AOR. Yes. The ruthless specificity around who you exist for, even within kind of a client portfolio that's like, all right, fine. We kind of took that cause we needed like, you know, revenue or whatever, but like we know within that roster, who the, who are our people? Like those are the clients that like, no matter what we bend over backwards, these are the ones that we pour ourselves into.

And you have to know that because that is. They are your North star. And that is what is going to take you into the future. And, and, you know, really manifest that vision for the agency that again, if you go back to why you founded it in the first place, what is our biggest ambition and how are every client that you work with every piece of work that you do either reinforces that vision or it distracts from it and takes you longer to get there. And so, you know, really being super, super specific and crystal clear on like your perfect ideal match in terms of a client. It's so important. It's just so, so important. Full circle. That is like the perfect ending to this conversation. All right.

Find more about Simone & Rachel’s process and NBZ Partner’s capabilities 

Simone & Rachel: Closing Remarks

Before I let you go, are you guys up for a little game of this or that? It's our little dot fun question. So we have a few that we have put together for you ladies. Okay. Are you ready? Here we go. Top of mind. So just fast. Okay. You guys prefer tailored coffee chats or full-scale reviews. Okay. Me too. Um, okay. Coffee or bourbon. Bourbon. I'm a cold brew coffee person. So I have to say coffee. Love that. Slack or email? Email for me. Honestly. I love Slack. Why don't I say that? Slack. All right. We got both. I'm team email. H&M or Zara? Zara. Oh yeah. Here we go. I think. Okay. New York or Portland? New York. To the day I die. New York. Oh, I love it. Alright.

Well, thank you ladies so much for joining me today. What's the best way for agencies or brands to reach out to you? You can email us at hello@nbzpartner.com. You can DM us on LinkedIn or Instagram. Um, we love, we love meeting new people, new agencies, new clients, um, because. Hi in Boston. If you're a, if you're a head small agency, we'll be there. Have a drink. Yeah. We love meeting new people. Awesome. Your network is your currency. That's exactly what I was going to say. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone. Thank you everybody. Curiosity. Really, really appreciate it. This was awesome.