Fearless Creative Wins Clients: Full Episode Transcript - Jameson Fleming’s Introduction

Hello everyone. Welcome to Question Everything, a podcast all about learning from the successes and failures of those who dared to question everything. This podcast is part interview, part therapy, and part Price is Right. We even have our own game boards stacked with questions that'll make even the most successful CMO Sweat. I'm your host, Ashley Walters, CMO, and partner at Curiosity. On today's episode, I sit down with Jameson Fleming, Adweek's managing editor of marketing and agencies. Jameson has relationships with hundreds of agencies and gets to preview our industry's best and worst work. Today, he gives you the exclusive on what is happening at Adweek and how he views the future of agency-client relationships. In this episode, he shares Greg Hans's best advice for branding your agency. Why playing it safe for too long means no one's gonna remember you. And the one person Jameson would drop everything to happy hour with. Let's get started.

Welcome to the Question Everything podcast. Today, we have a very special guest, Jameson Fleming. He skyrocketed his career as a young journalist covering a Super Bowl, a Final Four, the longest college hoops game in history, and all of that before he was 24. Talk about impressive along his journey. He's held just about every role possible in the Adweek newsroom, and he's now Adweek's managing editor of marketing and agencies, focusing on agency-client relationships, account wins and losses, the future of creative and media agencies, brand and performance marketing, and of course the role of the CMO. Welcome to the podcast, Jameson.

Well, thank you for having me. That was quite the introduction. Yeah, it's been a crazy career for me so far, but it's been a good, good one.

Yeah, I've loved it well, getting to know you following your career. You're so public. So, just reading your take on the industry has been an absolute blast for me, so I'm excited to kind of turn the tables today on you and be the one dishing you. 

Oh, I cannot wait for these.

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Fearless Creative Wins Clients: A Conversation with Jameson Fleming

Before we get into it, what's new? You've been so busy. You are in Cannes. You guys just wrapped up Brand Week, an agency of the year. I can't even imagine how hard that was. What's going on right now for you and Adweek?

Oh, yeah, you know, we're thinking about the rest of the year and how we can take big swings as an organization. You know, I think by the time this airs, I hope we've probably accomplished some of that in November and December. But we really wanna take a step back in LA and use the last two months of the year to kind of think big and, like, what are the issues really plugging CMOs? What are the issues that agencies are dealing with, and how can we use our journalism and reporting to try to expose those issues and provide solutions? That's really what, you know, we're all kind of about these days. The Adweek.

Yeah. I love that. We're super grateful for your take on it and your support of agencies like us. We’re really, really grateful.

Of course, great agency.

Thank you. I'll take that. All right, do you want to dig into the game board?

Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it all.

Right. We've got 12 super secretive questions because Jamison never gives us questions in advance. We didn't give him any of these questions in advance. The power is totally in your hands. You can pick your favorite from numbers one through 12.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Why Brands Shouldn't Fear Sharing with Adweek

We're going to start out because I am all about the Phillies right now because we're recording during the playoff season. We're going to my throwback favorite player, who was a favorite player during my childhood. Then it turned out he's a terrible human being, but I didn't know that when I was like six. So we're going with number four for Wendy Ditra.

Love it. Number four. All right, so I don't know if you know this, but some brands are just deathly afraid of press coverage, and they think that you know, I hear excuses like, oh, it's gonna give my competitors an advantage. We don't really wanna get it out there. It's a little too risky. What would you say to that CMO to convince them that it's okay to share their work with Adweek?

Jameson Fleming’s advice to other CMOs is to convince them that it’s okay to share their work with Adweek:

There are a couple of different ways to think about this. One, you know, we, we like to, when we cover a brand, we like to show what was your challenge or what was your goal? What were the steps you took to get there? And, you know, what was the end result? And for a lot of this stuff, you know, it may not be known to the public, but like, if you're Pepsi and you're talking about some of these challenges and your roadblocks with Adweek, I can guarantee you Coca-Cola knows what those were already. Like, if you're, if your competitors can't figure some of this stuff out on their own like they're just doing a bad job. And so from that standpoint, odds are you're not gonna expose company secrets to the trade press that you don't want getting out. We're looking for an honest discussion about how you did this.

Jameson Fleming’s continuation advice:

And that secret sauce helps people, especially younger marketers and, you know, lesser brands who are not out there to take your market share. And so I think often those fears of, oh my God, I'm gonna blow my competitive advantage are way, way overdone. And the other thing I would say is, you know, people read the trade press to figure out where they want to work. And so, if you are a brand doing cool work, you want marketers and agencies to know that you are a brand that does cool work because you'll attract better talent to your brand. You'll attract better talent to the agency behind all that cool stuff. And if you're quiet about it and nobody knows that, hey, you're an awesome marketing organization to work with, you're gonna suffer because of that. Because talent desperately wants to go to work with good clients. And if they don't know who the good clients are and they don't know you're a good client, they're gonna end up at your competitor who's also probably doing cool work. So you know, if you're not if you're not talking about how great you are and the cool things you're doing, you're just hurting yourself with people. And this is a people business at its core.

Hmm. I love that. So good. It's a people business, and thinking about the press is not just a way to share your campaign but as a way to attract top talent. I think that's just great advice. I've never thought about it like that. So HR managers listen up. You should be pushing your marketing teams to get some press.

Exactly.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Making Progress and Overcoming Stagnation

All right, let's go back to the board.

Now we're gonna go current favorite, and we're gonna go number three for Bryce Harper.

Number three, let's go, Bryce Harper. Okay. In a recent headline, you noted that in 2021, 73% of agency leaders were white. And in 2022, it was 90%. What are you seeing the leading agencies do to make forward progress?

Jameson Fleming shares his insights on what he sees the leading agencies do to make forward progress:

Yeah, this is a good one. I would point your listeners to a follow-up story that I did with the Infra 13 group and Rihanna Johnson, who it's basically applied for, they said, Hey, in 2020, after the murder of George Floyd, we're gonna get black leadership at agencies to 13%, which is what the US population is. 13 is made of 13% of people who identify as black. And so they, our initial survey was 3% they got it to 6% within a year, and then they stagnated. And I said, Hey, you know, you've got all these agencies in this place who actually are trying to do the work, and they're still not making progress. And so what's going on? And there were a couple of different explanations. One was, well, there's, the industry hasn't invested in black talent the way that it should have over the years.

And you can only poach so many people from others. And there's also every other industry out there that is having the same problem. It's not like you can go to the music industry and lower people over into, out into the ad into the advertising industry. And so, you know, it started to get into a numbers game of where do you go, where there are only so many people to go around, but the investment that they're seeing working in those agencies is investing in their younger talent. And so those results should improve over time, because if you invest in the young talent and you retain them, and you give them the space to grow, then you're gonna start seeing results over time because now you are increasing the numbers as opposed to an unlimited set of talent around because the industry overall has not invested in black talent and Hispanic talent over the years.

And they often go to other industries at a certain point. And so Rihanna's point was, you know, we stagnated now, but these agencies who are doing the work and are creating paths to leadership, they're mentoring them, they're getting them the training they need, you'll start seeing that number, hopefully, tick up over the next, you know, one to four years, you kind of gave it an overall three to seven-year timeline. And we're in year three. So it's really, it's about mentoring. It's about training, it's about, you know, helping them see where they want to be in their careers Mm-Hmm. And matching them up with the right people to get them there. And so you're gonna see progress over time if you're not doing that with your middle managers already and your lower talent and your, you know, more junior talent. I mean, they're just gonna leave to another agency who is investing in that kind of, you know, talent and talent retention. And so yeah, it was disappointing to see those numbers stagnate, but if you're doing the work, it will show up over time.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Navigating Diversity Programs and Networking in the Advertising Industry

Yeah. I will make sure that we link to both of those articles in the podcast notes. Have you seen any programs that agencies can be a part of to help with this? I know I've seen the Black internship program, which I'm sure you've heard about one School, which is a program we've been part of that I think has just done a tremendous job. Any other resources or anything out there that you've been tracking?

Yeah, it's a tough one for the leadership question because I think a lot of the programs you see across the industry and the ones you reference tend to be very good at helping talent get into this industry, which is a whole separate problem that I think the industry is doing a much better job of solving. And where it's the struggle is you don't see as many programs that take all that talent that you've brought into the industry, nurture it, and help it rise through the ranks. And so I think that's where the biggest kind of, you know, I don't, gray areas isn't the right word, but, you know, Eric work for work in progress that needs to happen yet. And so yeah, I don't see a lot of great programs at that middle level that are helping talent eventually reach that executive level.

Well, for anyone listening, it sounds like there's a gap in the market, and maybe very much so. Maybe somebody will create something. That's good. Thank you for that. All right, next number

We'll choose number eight because 26 isn't on the board for Chase Huley. We'll add two and six and proceed that way.

Jameson Fleming's also a massive sports fan, if you can't tell.

Yeah. Phillies, I live and die with the Phillies here.

I know you love good old-fashioned food. So, the first question is: Who makes the best old-fashioned food in New York? And then, who is one person in the industry with whom you would drop everything to go to Happy Hour?

Jameson Fleming’s take on who is one person in the industry that you would drop everything to go to Happy Hour with:

Oh gosh, the best old-fashioned in New York. Yeah, I don't remember the name of the place. I went there for my birthday two years ago with a couple of my closest friends from Adweek, including the one and only Jessica Ferris, who was my partner in crime for a couple of years at Adweek. I wanna say it was called the Brandy Library. I literally just walked past it yesterday on my way to breakfast. I think it's called the Brandy Library in Tribeca. Tribeca. I could be wrong about that fact. Check with me afterward.

Okay. All right. I won't.

Jameson Fleming’s continuation response: And then, who's one person? I would drop everything to go to a happy hour. You know, I always enjoy my conversations with Kristen Cavallo. I think she has such a unique perspective on this industry, and I think she's been one of the, you know, leading people in terms of making real change with, with the client side of things too, to improve things on the agency side. So I, I always love sitting down with Kristen Cameron Ashkar from Cross Media is another person who, you know, just from a personal standpoint, I think we, we get along quite well, and he's got a very unique, Indus unique perspective on this industry. Cross Media does a lot of things well that we value as a publication for what makes a really strong agency. So I think I'll go with those two people.

Okay. All right. I've met Kristen a couple of times. I actually reached out to her just a totally cold LinkedIn message saying, Hey, I'm, I've got some things on my mind, I'd love to talk to you about 'em. And within minutes, she was like, let's get on a call. And gave me a lot of time and a lot of advice, I'll be forever grateful for that experience. So Nice work. Let's get them both in the Brandy Library for a drink.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Navigating Remote vs. In-Office Dynamics

Yeah, really. That'd be perfect. Alright, let's go with the starting picture for tonight, the day that we are recording this game. Game four, Atlanta Braves Phillies, ranger Suarez double five. So, let's go with number five.

Number five. All right. Time for a hot take. Do you think creativity is stronger when creatives all work together in an office or now that they have the freedom to work remotely? I know this is a hot topic for you.

Jameson Fleming’s response on navigating remotely or in the office:

Yeah. Can I say both? Cause I believe in flexibility. Yes, I think it was probably stronger when creatives were all in the office. I don't think that was the reason why it was stronger. I don't, I think creative was just better because pre-pandemic, there was not a proliferation of a thousand channels. And so creatives could focus on, you know, a big idea and only have to make it work in a channel or two. Now, if you have a big brand idea, you've gotta think about how it works in 6,000 different channels. And so I think that's why it was stronger. I do see, I do understand the value of why agencies say, Hey, we want you to be back in person. You know, we see it at I week, we see it everywhere. You know, if you're together a couple of days a week, just things happen quicker, better, more naturally.

That said, people need freedom in their lives to work remotely, and people also need the freedom just to be able to get stuff done without distractions. And so that's what the office is these days. It's also a distraction. And so if you have two or three days where you are home, you know, able to work and focus without people constantly walking up to your desk, I think everybody will admit you're more productive. I think the ideas are better in the office, but more things get done by being at home. So agencies who don't understand this are gonna, you know, fail these next few years because they're gonna lose their talent. And so that's really the holding company question right now: How do you get the best of both worlds? But the holding companies are very much like, you gotta be in office no matter what.

Even though we've downsized all over real estate, people are now working from windowsills and the floor, couches, and chairs instead of desks. And yeah. It's a mess. And I don't envy any leader who has to try to make these decisions because every agency based on this talent has seniority, the people, it has its location. Every situation is different. And so you can't even look at really any other agency and be like, it's working there, so it's gonna work here. And it's, it's an impossible decision and I think a lot of them are getting it wrong right now. And it's only a matter of time until the course is corrected, but I don't know what that course correction is going to be.

I know you've seen a couple of mandates come across your desk and in memos on, you know, the CEO sending it out to the staff saying, you are required to be in the office four days a week, five days a week. And if you are not, there will be consequences.

We're gonna track swipes in and outta the building like that. That's wild to me. I mean, I had lunch yesterday with an agency who I won't name 'cause the person would kill me, but their CEO wanted to do it five days a week. And, you know, the leadership team, I, it seems like, is pushing back on that. But the idea that somebody is still thinking about five days right now is just wild to me. I mean, maybe in smaller markets where everybody's got 10-minute commutes into the office, and you give 'em the flexibility to go home if they need to, you know, get kids off a bus or whatever, I guess. But, like, not New York, like five days a week in New York is never gonna happen again.

Yeah, yeah. Hopefully, it doesn't happen here in Cincinnati, either. All right, awesome. Thanks for that insider knowledge. Let's go back to the board.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Navigating Agency Holiday Gestures

Let's go with the number nine to add. Let's add Zach Wheeler's 45 together for nine.

All right. This is a good one. I'm sure you're about to be bombarded with agency holiday cards. They've always been just kind of a staple. So what's one piece of advice you'd give agencies who are trying to surprise and delight you, and has there ever been an all-time fa

Jameson Fleming’s advice to agencies who are trying to surprise and delight him:

Oh, that's a good question. Honestly, I wish agencies would stop sending me stuff. I get so much stuff. The booze is okay. I will say I'll still take the booze, but instead of booze and all of the other stuff that I get, I would much rather you donate to a charity in my name, something for the environment. I'm, so, I think about the climate crisis all the time. I would much rather an agency, instead of sending me a $50 thing that I often re-gift or give away or not use, go spend $50 in my name to do good. That is one piece of advice for me personally. I do love Christmas cards and other unique items that agencies do, and they are more of a stunt as opposed to an actual physical gift. I can't think of any off the top of my head that are really impressive.

But I mean, the one thing that has been sent to me that I did appreciate was, that I still use the umbrella that RPA sent me like six years ago. It's a great umbrella. Whoever R p's umbrella guy is, they nailed it. But yeah, in the future, I would much rather an agency just say, Hey, we're thinking of you at Christmas. We're gonna donate 50 $50 to the Arbor Day Foundation or something like that and just not send me something. I would find that a thousand times more meaningful than whatever is gonna be sent my way.

But the question is, would you write about it? 'cause That's what they all want, you know?

Yeah. I probably won't write about it.

I don't know the holiday cards. And, like, I guess sometimes conflating the gifts that agencies try to send around holidays with the holiday cards. Sometimes they are the same things, sometimes they're different things, but yeah, I don't know about the holiday cards. I think if you come up with something really creative and interesting as a way to say, you know, we're thinking of you at this time of year is always nice, but I honestly can't recall one off the top of my head that really stood out.

Well, there are just too many of them. So then I have to know, like, do you have a holiday outfit plan this year? Can we expect anything from Jameson and Adweek?

Yeah. I haven't bought anything new so that I will stay tuned.

Okay. All right. You'll have to send us a picture or something first. All right. Back to the board.

All right. Let's go with number 10 for JT Real Muto.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Agency of the Year Insights

All right. You recently announced the Adweek Agencies of the Year. There were so many of them, and I know you guys had a lot of entries. So tell me one thing that stuck out for you across all the winners, and how should our industry be taking notes right now?

Jameson Fleming shares the one thing that stuck out for him across all the winners:

I think one of the things that really stood out to me was agencies who, A, have a clear proposition of who they are. And b, it's very clear how they think differently. So I'll start with the first one. There's a quote from Greg Khan from Ms. Schiff, who won US Agency the year they had this Medioc Rise breakthrough two years ago, midsize last year, and us this year. And he has a quote where he's, I'm paraphrasing. He's basically like, if your agency can't build its own brand, how is any brand supposed to trust you to build theirs? And it is just so perfect in this landscape of 14,000 agencies, and there's maybe like 25 to 50 who I could sit here and go, like, I believe you when you say that is your brand. Like that quote, I just wanna, like, put on a poster and mail it to every brand out there, or every agency in this country who tries to tell me what they are about and then has like no proof that that is really what they're about.

So you need to like, be able to really show and demonstrate what on earth you're trying to accomplish as an agency and what you're about. And it's not just the work; it's how you think internally. It's how you treat your people. Like, do you live up to this, this, you know, the idea that if your gut, that you're brave or you brave across all parts of your business, you're all about, you know, just stand out work and creativity and, and being fearless? Like, do you see that across the business and you do, and the way they run their business? And it's, and so it's so important for an agency to, you know, live that out. I mean, curiosity, I mean, curious. We're doing this. You're, you know, you do these questions, and it's part of your new business process. You know, it's a perfect example of how to integrate what you're about into how you work with clients because you could do something similar like this, not branded as curiosity questions, and you know, it would be just as effective, but it led us up to a larger purpose for the organization.

And so that's what we look for. Are you branding yourself in a way that we can see throughout your whole business?

That's really good advice.

And then the other point of just, you know, thinking differently, you know, we highlighted Alto because they have this really cool Hollywood production model where instead of having, you know, creatives in the industry work on the stuff, they go find people in Hollywood who can, you know, have connections and, you know, the consumer is consumer cellular ads they did with Ted Danon. You know, they brought in somebody who worked on The Good Place with Ted Danon to write those ads. It's just, it's so smart, and it's amazing. More agencies haven't figured out there's that massive resource out there and let's go tap it. And so, you know, Cole McCloy, things were like, well, how do we change the direction of our agency? How do we attract talent to a Midwestern agency? Well, let's be a B Corp and live out those values because we know young talent values stuff they thought differently, invested in it, made it authentic, made it real. And they really are for an agency that's, you know, almost 90 years old. They have completely reinvented themselves for the last five years. So it's about thinking differently.

I was blown away when you said that more than half of the agencies this year weren't in existence five years ago.

Jameson Fleming’s continuation response: It was founded about five years ago, and this is the last year they were eligible for the breakthrough category. Alto had spun off of a previous agency, but this specific iteration of it was new within the last five years and mischief, you know, four, three years ago. And so that's four of our summer winners because gut one, two categories.

Can we have a moment for the cover? So good.

Oh my God. So good.

So, like last year, we did it with mischief because we just didn't have the budget to do some big photo shoots. So, like, well, let's try having an agency design it, and mischief knocked it outta the park. We got to do it again with Gut this year. And I mean, my favorite part of that is from my seat. I don't get to see how creatives work on a daily basis, but, you know, last year I got to see how Greg Han and, you know, their top strategy person, Jeff Macquarie and Carrie McKibbon and Ollie, how they work. And then this year getting to see SMO and Gas Stone Vio and, you know, a couple of their other top creatives work together on this. I mean, it's so fascinating and cool to actually sort of be a client, you know, and work with these agencies. It's, you know, it's a privilege to see how that sausage gets made.

Yeah. I love the twist, like allowing the agencies to design it, because it's probably a privilege for them, too. And it's so good. Kudos to that team. Yeah, I've heard a lot of people internally here at Curiosity talking about it, too, so. All right, let's go back to the board. I think we have time for a few more.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Navigating Disruptive Marketing in Today's Cancel Culture

All right. Let's go to number seven for Trey Turner

By the way, I know none of these people you're talking about, so all right. So, what advice would you give to brands trying to find a balance between disruptive and safe content in today's cancel culture? I mean, I think mischief does it so beautifully. They're right on the line so many times. But you've also covered some of the bad that's happened this year. Any advice for CMOs?

Jameson Fleming’s advice to brands trying to find a balance between disruptive and safe content in today's cancel culture:

I think disruptive is better. Means nobody remembers safe content. You know, you obviously have to understand how far is too far, and that's where your agency comes in. I mean, they're always gonna try to sell you brave work, but they're almost certainly not gonna sell you work that's gonna damage your brand. At least a good agency isn't going to. And so if you have a partner you trust, like you, you should know they're not gonna bring you to work that's gonna damage your brand because nobody wants to be on the receiving end of, you know, a right-wing mob going after you for, you know, trying to celebrate you know, different groups of people. And just seeing those groups of people in your advertising like that, they're not gonna destroy the business by doing something that, you know, they think is too far.

You know, even the Bud Light stuff, Bud Light had been supporting the LGBT community for seven years, so that started in 2015 or 2016, where they really tried to reach out to that community and welcome them into Bud Light and say, we see you, and we appreciate you and we want to, you know, we want, we want you to feel like you could connect with who we are as a brand. 'cause Bud Light is more about, you know, fun and good times than it is about, you know, kind of the stereotypical like, you know, we're gonna go have Bud Light at a football game. And yeah, it's where Bud Light's strength, but you know, the Spirit App brand is not just about, you know, macho culture, which is, I think a lot of people went off like, how dare you connect these two things?

So, you know, Bud Light just had terrible timing in terms of the current climate. But they had done the work to do something like that previously, but it, you know, it ended up blowing up for reasons I think out of their control. But, you know, it really just comes down to trust that the people who are bringing you this work aren't gonna screw your brand over. Occasionally, something is gonna backfire, but often for not the reasons you think it would backfire. And so, you know, you wanna be memorable, you need to stand out. And if you play it safe and you play it safe too often, nobody is ever gonna remember your marketing. I mean, when was the last time you remember some, you know, ad that ran on TV last night that said nothing and meant nothing? You can't recall those ads because they're just not memorable.

Great advice. I wish all clients were bold and willing to take risks, but you know, they're all on their individual journeys to getting comfortable with it. I mean, it's so true. I think if you really want real business results, you have to have some level of disruption and some level of risk.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Challenges and Opportunities for CMOs

All right. Back to the board.

Let's go number one.

Well, have you ever heard the saying that All Press is good press? I'm sure you have. Yeah, of course. What is one thing every CMO should know about using negative press to their advantage? And do you believe that's true? Is all press good press, or is that fake news?

I don't believe that all Press is good press. I think the idea that if your brand is being talked about, you know, there's a lot of talk about, well, if your brand is being talked about, that's a good thing. I think there are situations where you don't want to. I mean, you know, shell, and we'll talk about the agency side, Havass winning Shell, mm-Hmm. I don't think anybody is looking at Havas better because Havass is in every freaking headline right now because they won the Shell account. I see on LinkedIn all day, every day, sharing Katie Lundstrom's story from our team about them winning that account and throwing that agency on the bus for being a B Corp and taking on Shell as a client. So, no, I don't think all good press is good press, and, ooh, I am trying to think if there's a situation in which CMOs can leverage negative press to their advantage.

I mean, I think it's probably if A CMO is smart and knows how to change the narrative around whatever that negative press is, I think that's really the only time. If you can use that to kind of, you know, slide your way into a different topic and change the topic or kind of alleviate the concerns around that negative press, that's probably the only time, you know, maybe, you know, maybe you took an example like Tide with, you know, the Tide pod issue. They did some really creative marketing around Tide Pods when they were having that issue, which I think helped their case, and they were able to give them a runway for a campaign. So I think that's one example, but I don't think there are a lot of great examples of using the negative press to their advantage if you're the CMO.

Yeah, the Tide example is a really good example. They took something that was happening in real life and turned it into a way to educate people on how to make it safer. All right. Back to the board, I think let's do another one.

Explore these 5 hot takes from Adweek’s Jameson Fleming in addition to why Fearless Creative wins clients

Jameson Fleming: Fearless Creative Wins Clients — Finding Balance and Growth

Let's go number six. Okay.

All right. I was at one of your working parent town halls, and you're also a working parent. So I'm curious: How has being a dad of two helped or maybe hurt your career? This was one of the questions I got.

I would say it has only helped me. I worked with three kids, and I was a bad example of a work-life balance within the Adweek newsroom. I worked way too much. People saw how much I was putting in and how many hours I was putting in. And so having kids allowed me to dial, force me to dial that back. Like, I couldn't do what I was doing with kids, especially once I had my second kid, which was right before the pandemic started. And so I think it allowed me to see the bigger picture, and it made it a lot easier when I would say to my team, like, Hey, sign off at the end of the night. You know, they saw me signing off at the end of the night, and I never wanted anybody on my team to work crazy hours. And I was vocal about that, but you know, if you're managers doing crazy hours, it's very easy to be like, well, he's doing those crazy hours. I should be doing crazy hours. And so I've gotten back to a much better work-life balance. I think I'm a more empathetic leader because of my kids. I just feel like I understand people better because of it, you know? I would say it has only helped my career in different ways. And so, yeah, that's the answer there.

You're a better leader because of it. That's great. Well, Jamison, that was so much fun. Thank you for indulging us a little bit and allowing us to turn the tables on you. I think my last question for you is, what's the future, where's the industry going? What's your take on what we're going to see over the next couple of years?

I think if agencies and brands can't figure out how to work together better, I think you're just gonna continue to see the penny-pinching agencies have to show their value. Brands have to be open to understanding the value of agencies. And if brands continue to let procurement dictate how the relationship goes and let the CFO dictate how the relationships go, I think you're just gonna see the work continue to drop off in quality. You know, brave clients are the ones that are, are winning right now, and brave clients can only happen if their financial teams behind them allow them to be brave and to work with the agencies that will let them do that. And so I think you're gonna continue to see this divide of haves and have nots, and the haves are just gonna have clients talking to them, and have nots are going to just really struggle to just to, to survive really.

Yeah. That's a great way to end it. How should our listeners reach you? What's the best way?

Email is fine.

Send all of your holiday card emails to Jameson's email, which you can find online. We may link to it in the show notes. We'll see. All right, my friend, thank you so much. This was fun. I can't wait to have an old-fashioned date with you in New York sometime soon.

I am looking forward to that day. Thank you for having me.