Curiosity’s Leadership: Full Episode Transcript

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Hello, everyone. Welcome to Question Everything, a podcast all about learning from the successes and the failures of those who, well, dared to question everything. This podcast is part interview, part therapy, and part Price is Right. We have our own game board stacked with questions that'll make even the most successful CMO sweat. I'm your host, Ashley Walter, CMO and partner at Curiosity. On today's episode, I sit down with my partners, Trey Harness and Jeff Worman of Curiosity. That's right. To kick off 2025, we're keeping this episode in-house. Today, you'll learn what the shelf theory is and why clients should care, why listening more, talking less, and betting on yourself helped pave the path to ownership, and why your art should be worn out. Here's Jeff's take on evaluating creativity.

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Join us for this special edition of Question Everything. Today on Question Everything, the Curiosity owners are getting in on the action. That means I'm not only host, I'm also a guest, along with my fellow owners, President Trey Harness and Chief Creative Officer Jeff Worman. Besides being longtime partners, we're also longtime friends. Today, we're going to share our juiciest 2024 reflections: a sneak peek at what we're cooking up for 2025. Jeff and Trey, welcome officially to Question Everything. Oh my gosh. Thank you. I thought we were hosting. Yeah. Oh no, no. Who are we interviewing? I've got all sorts of questions for you. You had the wrong brief. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Is that the surprise? You're going to ask us questions? Yes, I'm asking you questions.

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Curiosity’s Leadership: Jeff, Trey, and Ashley Introduction

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I might answer a few too, but the tale has returned. I don't know how I should feel about it. How long have you had the podcast? A while. Yeah, and we're just now getting on. I don't know how I feel about that. Yeah, our guest list was late. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You ran out. We were actually supposed to be on this back in the day one time, but then Ashley just got impatient with us, which I totally understand. Right. I literally thought I was a host of this podcast. So did I. And then the first episode came out, and we were like oh, that was great. I wasn't-I mean, let me explain. And I think people can relate to this, but you don't have to explain; I understand already.

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Yeah. I mean, I tried to get on your calendar, and it just wasn't happening. And so I thought, you know what? This is going to be faster if I just do it myself. That was smart. And that was smart. That was very smart. But then here we are. Here we are. And you're crushing it. You are. Thanks. It's been a lot of fun. But today's going to be a lot of fun too. So let's just start with how the hell we met, because we've known each other for a really long time. And it started a long time ago at an agency called Northlich, which was a big agency here in town, for 70 years. They had been around. We had offices all across the state of Ohio. Life was good. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. It was good and we were working on the Ohio Tobacco Prevention Foundation doing some youth-led marketing. Yeah. Which was some of my favorite work that I've ever worked on. And I know you guys feel the same. But I specifically remember when you volunteered. I think you were like nine. You volunteered to do a YouTube. Yeah. Like a YouTube video series for Northlick. Back when we were like, what is YouTube? Yeah. And you were like, you were like, well, you know, they wanted to figure out how to like talk about trends and stuff. And you're like, I'll do that. And then all of a sudden you're like this little video star. And I'm like, oh, she's somebody. Yeah.

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This is like 20 years ago. Oh, my God. You know, almost. Not, not quite. This is what, 17 years? I don't know, something like that. Something like that. Yeah. And then Trey was an intern. This is years before Ashley was on YouTube. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But Trey, so Trey wasn't, I remember, and we, we hit it off. There's a million things I love about Trey, loved him instantly. Wish I could say the same. And then I, and then I, I gave him a review. And after that. This is the only time he's ever given me a review, by the way. I gave him a review. Because I was a couple years ahead. I'm a few years ahead. And I gave him a review and I said a few critical things in it.

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As you should. Feedback is a gift. Yeah. Absolutely. And one of the things I said is that he should listen more. And right after he got his review from his manager, he came stomping over to my cubicle. And said, I love you. I know that you're the one who said that, that I should listen more. And I'm like, yeah, you should. And I think it changed. It's great feedback. It changed his whole career. It's great feedback. I still could use that feedback. Right. So you were spot on. Yeah. You never really took the advice, but. No. It's all good. Not at all. Not at all. No, that was fun back in the day. It was. And we all kind of went our separate ways. You like started an agency with Dahani Jones.

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You went on to become the president of Gyro Cincinnati. I went over to Empower for a few years. You joined me over at Empower for a few years. I did. And then now, Curiosity. It's been a journey. Yeah. We're on like year six. Yeah. Almost. Roughly. And yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been a ride. It has been. Yeah. It's been a lot of fun. Well, that's what we're going to dig into today is the ride. So just like all of our other guests, I have 12 super spicy questions. Right. We will go to the game board. So the game board's set up a little bit like our CQ session that we do with a lot of our clients. You don't know what's behind each of the numbers.

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Curiosity’s Leadership: Some of the most impactful feedback in your career

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You get to pick your favorite number. I'll ask the question and we'll see how the discussion goes. Okay. Does that sound good? Let's do it. We probably won't get through all of them, but we'll try. Okay. Let's do it. Let's get through all of them. All right. If we're here all day. If we're here all day. Yeah, we're here all day. We have nothing to do. This is a six-hour podcast. Yeah. Who wants to go first? Trey? Trey should go first. Okay. All right, Trey. Obviously, the best number on the planet is three. Three? Three. Yeah. All right. It's all that coming. Well, listen to that. We just talked about this. So feedback is a gift. What is the most game-changing feedback you have ever received?

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Curiosity’s Leadership: The most impactful feedback for Trey

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And it can't be that you need to listen more. We need something else. What'd you say? Sorry, no. Well, it would be two things. One, the first year of my career. About six months into my career, I thought this business wasn't for me. And I was trying to figure out like, what else was I going to do? Should I go back to school? I felt like a little bit lost on the team I was on. And for a lot of different reasons that are, you know, no one's, no individual's fault or anything like that. But this new business guy took me under his wing and he was just kind of like, 'his name's Bruce McTagg'. Shout out to Bruce McTagg. Yeah. I love that guy.

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But, you know, he just, you know, he kind of gave me a kick in the pants and was just like, 'you have a ton of talent. You need to, you need to apply it.' Right. Like, and I think the big thing is like, 'you got to find the passion for this.' And I knew I wanted to be there. Like, I knew I loved, I was super interested in the business. I just felt like, man, maybe it's just not for me. And that just, that perspective just kind of opened my eyes to, I guess, to having an open mind about, you know, what's going on. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, when I spoke to West, I said, 'Have you talked to an audience? I think one of the things that I love the most about it is that I learn, I feel like I learn more every day in this role than any other role I've ever been in, which is kind of odd. But so to me, it's just like, I feel like I get constant feedback because everything that we do collectively at this agency, we get the instant feedback of our staff or our clients responding to it. And so it's really special.

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Like, I wouldn't trade that for anything, but it also, you know, makes you have to be on your A-game every day. So I think we've created a culture where, like, giving feedback does kind of feel like a gift. I mean, that's a saying that we use a lot. It was inspired by some improv training that we did. That is what you are saying. Day one. It might have been the first thing you said to the staff. You just walked in and you had a green dress. And yeah, I mean, but you did. You said it the first time you spoke to the staff and it's it's stuck. Yeah. We've had clients and consultants actually compliment us on the way we receive and respond to feedback. So I think that's a good sign.

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Curiosity’s Leadership: The most impactful feedback for Ashley

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One thing that you mentioned that I don't know, just like really rings true with me is like a moment in your career where you started to second-guess everything. And I know I had a moment like that in my career. And it's funny because while I was in this moment of, 'Is this for me? Do I really just want to be creating ads that people are skipping all the time for the rest of my life?' You actually called me and you're like, 'Hey, have you ever thought about owning an agency?' And I'm like, 'Well, that's interesting.' And you gave me feedback. That's some of the best feedback I've ever gotten, which is whenever you're in a situation where you can bet on yourself, do it.

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And I've thought about that a lot, even over the last six years at work, and at home. And I just thought that was really, really good feedback when you're in control somewhat and you have the opportunities. Yeah. To really like bet on yourself every time. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, it's the only thing we really can control, like, in our career. So, and Jeff was the one that told me that because Dhani is the one that told Jeff that. So, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah. Dhani gave me so much incredible advice. And if I-if it are we both answering. Go ahead. We all answer. You got an answer. 

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Curiosity’s Leadership: The most impactful feedback for Jeff

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Alright. Because I do have, I do have something that Dhani also said to me one time, which is very simple: 'You talk too much.' God bless Dhani.

God bless Dhani. I'm still working on that. I've gotten I've gotten better. I've gotten better. But we had a big conversation about letting the work demonstrate why you should believe in it. And, you know, we're not. That's why I've always I've never really been about selling. It's always been about just having a conversation about the work and then letting the work speak for itself. And so I think about that one a lot. That's great. But I'm going to stop talking. Let's go. Alright, back to the game board. All right, Jeff, you're up. Number one. Let's go. All right. So, 

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Curiosity’s Leadership: Why Curiosity chose to own its own space

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Jeff, you bought a building. Actually, we're sitting in it, our new podcast studio. So, in your opinion, why do you think it's important for curiosity to own its own space?

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And what do you think this building represents for our culture, for any potential policies we might roll out? I mean, work in the office, work from home. It's a hot topic right now. So. Any thoughts on that, too? And I'm not going to let Trey answer that. No, just kidding. Let's make an announcement on the show. We're going to cut back to working in the office to six days a week. That's right. Yeah, yeah, and stay at home on Sundays. No, I mean, we are such a unique place. And I think over the last couple of years, as much as I loved things about the last office we had, you know, one of the biggest things that always came up was it didn't necessarily feel like us. It was a nice space.

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It had character and everything. But for who we are. As an agency, as a culture, as people, in my mind, once we made the decision, we should own our own space. We should control how it looks and feels, and we should just really make it inspiring. That was that. Then it was kind of like, oh, yeah, of course, that's what we would do. Of course, that is what curiosity would do. That's what the three of us would do. And it goes back to just that advice that Trey gave you. It's like when we're in when we can control. There's a million things in life we can't control. And in this business, you know, even more, even more, double that, even more.

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But if you can have, you know, the kind of influence and control on something that and control in a way that's like our people will control it, too. It's like, yes, we're like setting the stage. But really, this is you know, this is for everyone to kind of like hopefully be inspired by it and do what they want to do. Here. And I've heard some of that feedback. You know, we're only a month into being in this space. And so there's still a lot developing. But I think it's-I think it's doing the job. And, you know, I love it. And it's a beautiful space. Jeff's wife actually helped design a lot of the space and the interiors. And Jeff and his wife were actually creative partners way back in the day at Northlake.

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When over 10 years. Yeah. Creative team. And she easily is the most inspiring, most talented, creative I've ever met. And I, you know, I'm so lucky that every day I'm inspired by her. And so turning this over to her was kind of a no-brainer. One hundred points for Jeff. Yeah. Well, what do you think? So, OK, work from home, work in the office. Are you watching? Right. Also, those points are great. What's your take on it? What's your take? Yes. I would rather have everybody in the office Monday through Friday. I'm going to be in this office Monday through Friday as best as I can. I should remind everybody that we've got four dogs. So sometimes that makes it difficult to get anywhere. Right. You know what I mean?

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I mean, he hasn't taken a vacation. And you also have two children. Yeah. I forgot about that. Quick reminder. But they are basically dog owners, which is with us. They're like my roommates that own the dogs with us now. Yeah. So, no, I like; I would love to have us in here Monday through Friday because I love being around our people. I think, you know, we've talked about it for a long time. I think our work is better when we're all together. And I think most importantly, I will say this. I think one thing we should really seriously consider doing is I think people that haven't been working in this business for more than, you know, five years, especially if five years kind of gets you to that 10,000 hours point for talking about Malcolm Gladwell for a second, they should probably be in the building every day because.

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You can't learn provocative statement. Yeah, you can't learn. You can't learn when you are just looking at your screen, right? There's no osmosis learning between the meetings. The only time you're going to get engagement from someone else is if you're in a meeting when you're working remotely. And that's not enough for people that I think it's not enough for everybody. But I would say it's especially not enough for people who are still trying to learn the basics of the job. Right. And I know that, like, you know, four years in, you're learning more than the basics. But, again, to get to that 10,000 hours where you feel like you are, you know what you're doing and you can think on your feet, that takes real experience.

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And so, you know, I do think it's something that all of our young people should be considering, especially those that have career ambitions like I want to get to the next level. I want to improve and I want to do it as fast as I can. Being in the office more often, most likely you're going to get promoted sooner than if you weren't. I'd like that. Just in fact, we think we talk about those moments that happen in the cracks, yes, exactly. And, you know, like popping in on a meeting. Yeah. Like confronting someone about their first review. You know, like that doesn't happen. I didn't schedule a meeting to do that. Right. I mean, right? You just sprinted over. I beelined. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You beelined and accosted me.

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Like, yeah, it was great. It was great. No, you're right, though. I mean, that's like, yeah, some of this. The advice that we were just talking about a minute ago, some of that. I mean, those those moments. Yeah. Bruce McTagg pulling me aside happens more organically, you know, so. So I think I think we just decided. Yeah. We're like, it's. Yep. See you all in here on Monday. I mean, I'm also a fan of flexibility. So, I love having the option. And I love that. It's like you don't have to be here from 8 to 6 or 8 to 5 every day. And if life calls you to be at home one day for whatever reason, like we have the trust in our people to make that happen and we don't have to look at swiped badges, and you know some of the extremes that other agencies have to because guess what?

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We hire adults, and we trust the people that we hire. And now we have an incredible, creative, inspiring space that people want to come spend time in, which I love. Yeah, I think it's probably more accurate to say that I don't necessarily want people to be in the office. I want people to want to be in the office. Right. Like, because to me, that is. Have to be versus want to be. Exactly right. Yeah. But for the record, we also have, you know, been incredibly understanding of the flexibility, and how much that means to people. And as long as no one's, you know, taking advantage of that. Yeah. You know. We trust our people. We trust our people. So, it makes it easy for us to do it the way we've been doing it because our people are awesome.

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Yeah. True story. All right. Back to the board. You're up. Oh, wait. No, are you up? I mean, I'll pick one. I don't. I don't know what's behind it either. You're playing. You're playing. Yeah, you're playing. I mean, my favorite number is nine. So let's go nine. All right. Round robin. What is the most meaningful or unexpected way that you've leaned in as an owner? Interesting question. I mean, because we all have our day jobs. Right. So I'm in sales and marketing. You are, you know, definitely more account business leadership. Correct. And creative. So outside of your role, have there been ways that you've had to lean in that maybe were unexpected? I've got one. I can start. Go ahead. So one of the big moments for me was Roe versus Wade.

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And, you know, there's a lot of conversation, a lot of decisions happening that are kind of out of our control, you know, state and government led. And we're just kind of sitting back and seeing what Ohio is going to do. And in no way. My job as a business development or marketing was like, 'You need a point of view and you need to think about our policies and you need to figure out what our stance is going to be. And so I think that was a really interesting moment being the only female owner at the table to kind of lean in and provide my perspective. And, of course, it was met with such empathy and awesomeness as you guys are. And I think we made some good decisions after that.

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Good one, really good one-my answer to that question. Even though we just talked about it, is this office, you know, literally getting my wife involved. I know that sounds like a terrible client, or a bad client thing. Jeff was like. I asked my wife, 'Moving stuff, putting stuff together.' Yeah. We I mean, in terms of leaning in and trying to really make this space feel special. Yeah. I mean, my whole family was involved in you know, weekends, long nights. Yeah. All kinds of things, including extended family, my sister-in-law, my mother-in-law, one of our neighbors. Like, we're all in here putting things together, helping make sure that, you know, things felt special for the first day here. So, that's definitely the biggest one for me. Yeah. For real. Alright.

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Curiosity’s Leadership: What the Shelf Theory is and where Curiosity sits

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Let's go back to the game board. Let's see. Trey, you're up again. Five. Number five. Alright. This question, I think, Jeff, I want you to answer. So. The shelf theory. I don't know if you invented this. I think we need to trademark it. But talk a little bit about the shelf theory. Like, what is it and where do you think we are right now? And what are the challenges or opportunities with that? Okay. So. I think it was Ken, right? It was. It was really. Yeah. It was Ken Robinson. Yeah. Has he been a guest on here yet? No. But. Oh, shout out. Ken. It was Ken who said. I'm trying to figure out. I'm trying to figure out what shelf to put you guys on. So here we are.

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Smallish agency in Cincinnati. And just like fighting for recognition, fighting to be seen, to be known; like we've embraced the underdog mentality in so many ways. And we just keep scrapping and we keep, you know, we're patient, but then we're we're aggressive. And then we're patient. And then we're, you know, and then we attack things; and I think that's caused a lot of the people who are observing what we're doing to wonder, 'Are they for real? Are they for real?' We thought about it for a while. I'll say maybe I questioned it once or twice, like because I knew what we wanted. And it was like. Past tense. That's five. We're not still questioning. That's years ago. We knew what we wanted.

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But it was like, 'Is this possible?' Is this possible to get the right people and the right culture and build the thing we want to be and get ourselves on higher shelves so that we're not just seen as a little guy in Cincinnati, we're actually seen as a national competitor to any agency that's out there. And we're working our way up, you know, it's hard to say what shelf I mean, I can name some agencies. I think we're, you know, on the same shelf as that maybe a year or two ago. We were not on that shelf. But that's the shelf theory is, you know, what what shelf are we on? And I think it's it's a driver for us. We're we're crazy competitive.

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And as long as that cabinet keeps as long as there's more shelves, we're going to we're going to keep fighting. And it's not about that's not about growth. That's not about numbers. It's not about the number of people or anything about like that. It's about the thinking and the product and the impact we can create. And you know, can we? How can we capture people's attention more than any other agency? So yeah. So we're working our way up the shelves. I think, too, it's the people we attract to the company you're starting to see some of that changing as well. For sure. That the talent continues to grow. And, you know, I think we'll see evidence of that and we're seeing it now and we'll see evidence of the effect of that very soon.

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I think it's a worthwhile exercise for agencies just to take a beat and talk about that and figure out where they are, where they've been, where they want to go and make some strategic decisions based on that. I love it. Alright. Let's go back to the board. Alright. Yeah. Oh, I'm up. Eleven. Alright. Alright. Well, this one's right back at you. 

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Curiosity’s Leadership: Jeff and Trey’s creative philosophy 

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And I want to hear Trey your take on this, too. So as a chief creative officer, what is your philosophy for evaluating creative? Well, there's a lot that goes into that. I will say, though, I. I think there's so much of it is gut, and I think I'm man, that'd be a great name for an agency. Yeah. Let's let's see if that's trademarked. I know. I know. We should look that up. No, but a lot of it is, it's that's where it starts. Does this like I think I have a sixth sense for when like when I see a line or a, you know, a platform, a creative platform that usually starts with something like a tagline. I know. I know it like really fast, like this. This is special. And then and then I have to go through the process of thinking about the emotion it creates. Can it handle the functional aspects of the job that has to be done? Can we know? Does it can it be inspiring for, you know, a long time? There's so many different things that I start to debate. And then, you know, the creative leaders and I hash it out.

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I have a fun little thing. If you weren't going to say it, I was. You were OK. You were fishing for this. No, no, no. No, but I mean, so there's you know, there's this way of evaluating creativity that is just really simple that I think is kind of fun to talk about, which is we call it art and overalls. So art and overalls is basically, you know, the art is the the emotion that you want the idea to have and the overalls. The reason the art is wearing overalls is because it's got work to do. So the work that we create has work to do. So art and overalls is kind of the emotion and the function that we want an idea to have.

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And so we look at it and then we can kind of when we are evaluating, we can kind of say, 'Hey, does this work on the art and overall scale?' And that doesn't always mean it's perfect, but it tends to prove out to be pretty true. If you look at a lot of the really effective work out there, you can see how those that yin and yang of the emotion and like the functional differentiation, how those two really work together. So I always think about that. That's great. Yeah. From an account standpoint, really quickly: Is there anything that you go through? Like, do you have a process? You know, like, I mean, first, I would say really good. Similar to the gut statement.

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You know, I think I would translate what Jeff said to I think really good creative is not seen or heard. It's it's felt right. So, you know, I think if it makes you feel something, you're on the right path. And I would say that it's not just as an account person, but just as a human. I think, you know, I think simplicity is probably. The biggest thing I look for. Because, you know, having a like force multiplying massive creative idea that, you know, is going to like potentially transform a business just because, man, that is just an incredible idea that people will rally around. Certainly, those things are. Those things are typically really simple. Right. So if we've got simplicity, then we've got potential in my mind.

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And so that's that's the number one thing I'm looking for is simplicity. When I think about like, I'm thinking about it from the client standpoint or from an account person standpoint, because that honestly, that's like the best place for us to start to convince a client to take a chance. So if it's simple enough, then they should feel really good about it. Yeah. Pete Carter calls it the Pete Carter tingles. So it's got it's got to make you feel something, which I love. Yeah. I think you’re on to something with him if he says he’s got the tingles. Let’s go. Alright. Back to the game board. I think I get to choose next. Let’s go. Number six. Okay. So, Trey, I want you to answer this one first.

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Curiosity’s Leadership: Times when Curiosity’s culture went above and beyond

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So name a time when curiosity's culture just blew you away because people talk about our culture all the time. Yeah. You know, I think the way that our cult has our culture has responded to massive moments outside. So, like, if the pandemic’s obviously one of the things that we’re talking about. So, you know, whether it’s Roe v. Wade, whether it's, you know, the things that happen in our industry, you know, awful tragedies or incredible, you know, incredible celebrations. I feel like our culture does a really good job of, like, being human first. So I think any time we've had something that's been outside of our business, the way that our culture has responded to that, recognizing that, like, hey, at the end of the day, we're all humans first.

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Has just been, you know, that's exactly what the kind of company that I would want to work at. Yeah, I think the I mean, COVID jumped into my mind thinking about standing on, you know, people's front lawns. Yeah. And having conversations, you know, from a distance and delivering packages and, you know, just checking in with everybody that that was that was huge. I also think about what these jokers have created, which is ours. I tell so many people who are thinking about wanting to work at Curiosity. I'm like, have you gone through our Instagram and our TikTok? Totally. Just you'll know what it feels like to work here and to connect with the people here by doing that. It's just it's it's so well done.

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But I think of like one kind of micro-culture moment where it really helped me realize that you know, something really special was happening. Which is when a few years back we were rebranding ourselves and we had a trusted partner design partner kind of working on everybody was too busy internally. But like we still wanted to hit some timing of like, kind of rolling out the new curiosity. And so we had this like trusted partner working on designs and, you know, design thinking. And internally, K. G. and Craig's and a few other folks came to me and said, 'like', no, we'll we'll put in the extra time. This is ours. This means too much to us. This is like there's too much connection.

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And that was I mean, culture took over the the design of what the agency was going to be about. And it was like, yep, that's the right choice. And they they came to that conclusion. They didn't have to do that. And I think in a lot of bigger agencies potentially, that you're not even seeing that that work is happening. You're not even seeing that you could grab hold of that and own it the way that this team did, that and said, like, no, we believe in this. We're so connected to this place. We want to own whatever is whatever represents us. We're going to own that because we care so much about it. So that that's. That hit me.

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I remember thinking like, oh, OK, this is, you know, like people want to be a part of this. And that was what happened right before the pandemic. That was a serendipitous moment that I think made the pandemic a positive thing for us as and our for our culture. Yeah, we were like ready to go. We were in New York City launching the brand. Right. There was like one case of COVID when we flew out. And I remember being at this Adweek conference, like shaking people up. It was like, we know what they're like. Don't take them as buddies for real.' We were like that, nomination. We're like saying, we're going to have to get them in the disaster unit.' And I think we were Are you excited, bud?

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I mean, you just... we were in San Diego, not January. This is a good point between Provisional Center. So it was pretty; it was a story from being there. I'm like, 'We think about all kinds of questions.' Like Toulouse. Let's, you know, and I would also, I think, be kind of like. Not all of us, maybe it's, but all the doctors that are in here. Like we got to like raise our hands to the people there. 

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Curiosity’s Leadership: What to expect from Curiosity in 2025

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Curiosity in 2025? I'm really excited about our work taking a really big step, right? I think as we talked about earlier about, you know, what shelf we're on, I think we're getting a track; we're attracting clients that could help move us to a new shelf.

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But what I'm most excited about, honestly, is being able to bring some of our new talent and some of our new way of approach, our new thinking to current clients. Like making incredible work for clients, especially clients that have been with us the longest. Like I want to do, you know, something really great for these brands that have been our partners for a long time. And we've always done, you know, good to great work for them. I think we are the most prepared as we've ever been to do some really great work for them. Like work that will definitely be effective and achieve incredible results. Yeah. I want to build on that because I think that my answer is, you know, what's next for us is big, big swings.

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We're going to take some big swings. And I think, it's not just because we want to do it. It's because actually our clients want it. The prospects that we've been talking to recently, they want it. I think they're getting, there's a lot of conversation around them getting a little frustrated, frustrated with fighting it out in the, in, in the lower funnel performance area and struggling to like really be known for something and really be seen. And guess what? That requires a big swing. You know, that means big ideas. You got to invest in them. And it doesn't mean you have to have a big budget. It just means you have to like put a little effort into thinking for a big swing.

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And, and it doesn't always cost, a lot of money, but it's a big, you know, it can still be a big idea. And so, um, man, that we keep having those conversations. So I know that's what 2025 is going to look like for us. Yeah. I'm excited. I think this coming year, people are going to see a slightly elevated sense of who curiosity is. I think, I think we are growing up quite a bit and I think we are starting to bring something unique to the industry that needs it. And we're in a moment of just like critical change in the industry. And so I'm excited to see that kind of come to life and how we make the notion and the science behind curiosity mean something more and something very beneficial, especially to clients.

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See more of what Curiosity is about on our website

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Curiosity’s Leadership: Closing remarks 

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Okay. Well, you guys have been great guests. If you've listened to any of our podcasts, you know that we always end with a little 'this or that', right? So it's rapid-fire questions. However, today we're going to do things a little differently. So we also have a show that we produce. Oh my God! I, yeah, I have rejected being on Hot Ones 50 times. So we call it Dot Fun, Hot Ones. And in this series for anybody who hasn't seen it, we put two employees head to head eating some very hot chicken wings. And as they're eating them, they have to answer these look like chicken nuggets. Spicy questions. And so today, my friends, you get to try some chicken nuggets because Jeff's favorite food is chicken nuggets, mac and cheese.

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It's mac and cheese. This is our hottest hot sauce on dot fun, hot ones. Oh, screw you. Jeff, your question! I need you for our listeners and our viewers to explain this photo. And for everybody, we are looking at Jeff Warman, at what looks like the White House, standing at a podium, wearing a suit for the last time ever. That's basically true; it's not that bad. I just have to swallow it. Okay. So 1995. Okay. Summer of '95, I interned at the White House. Look at that tie. No, I was just going to say, well, I mean, I was interning at the White House. I had to do it. So I was in the press department. And so every day I got to be in the room for the press brief.

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This is hot for the press briefings. And so, of course, like when the briefings were over, the interns would all gather at the podium, pretend like we were putting on our own press conference, and get pictures of each other. So this is a fake, pretend press conference. Yeah, it's totally fake. And can we just make just one quick note? You interned with Monica Lewinsky. I interned with Monica Lewinsky, who I didn’t really know at all. But we’re in like, you know, like intern staff photos together. And now I think that that woman is an inspiration. She’s she’s actually pretty amazing. I wish we could get her on the podcast. This was a genius question because now we can meta-tag Monica Lewinsky to this podcast.

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You should have eaten that already. So then who's up next? Alright, Trey, you're up. You better make him have a long answer. Is it spicy? Yeah. You’re going to get out of it. We’re going to run out of time and you’re not going to have. Well, you want to know what the truth is? I already did a Hot Ones. Oh, that's right. You learned. So technically, I don't even think I should have to eat it. All right. How you feeling? You good? All right. Trey, you love being presidential. What is the most insane issue you've had to deal with as president of your neighborhood pool? Oh, my God. The neighborhood. Oh, man. Excellent question. I love this question. I love that you're in pain.

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I think there's a plaque of Trey in a bathroom. Although I handled this way better than Trey's hand. Yeah, I'm not well, actually. Well, there's like definitely a seed. There was a seed, you know like the seeds are the hottest. There was a seed on the top of mine. Yeah, I think it was a joke. So. So we're saying, man, the pool, there's a lot of things like during the pandemic, just like the craziness of like, open your eyes, I can't the craziness of people, like the expectation that they wanted the pool to be the arbiter of who should be wearing masks or not outside. So it was I mean, it was just crazy. It was like. I come from work where I felt like I had to make all of these decisions, like health code decisions that I knew nothing about.

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And then I had to go to the pool and they were elevated to a whole nother level. It was it was it was insane. And then, you know, just the constant, the constant being on call all summer and it basically being my number one priority. So, yeah, Trey would leave meetings early because you have to get to the. He missed a lot of work for very important. Yes. All right. This is not do I need to eat one or can we wait? What? Yeah. All right. So my question is: smooch, marry, kill these terrifying things. I'll eat it just because. But for the record, I eat like a dozen of these on Hot Ones, which you guys need to come on. No. We'll see how big of babies they are.

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Oh, it's pretty spicy. All right. Smooch, kill, marry, kill. Oh, yeah. Smooch, marry, kill, improv, panel discussion, or award acceptance speech. Well, I like all three of these things. That's why you guys. And that is Ashley Walters. You should rap on that. Yeah. I mean, I would probably smooch the award acceptance speech because that's just like chef kiss. I would probably marry improv just because I think that's a lifelong commitment to learning and I'd probably kill the panel discussion. That's a good one. Yeah, I would kill the panel discussion. But you're really good on this. Well, yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you guys so much for coming on. This was a total blast. I think we should do it again sometime. Thank you so much. Yeah. Here's to another good six years. Cheers to that. Let's do it.

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